§ Question proposed: That this schedule be the Third Schedule to the Bill.
§ Captain OrrBefore we leave this schedule I think it important that we welcome one particular thing within it, and that is paragraph 3, which says:
Without prejudice to paragraphs 4 and 5 below, the maintenance of public order, including the conferring of powers, authorities, privileges or immunities for that purpose on constables, members of the armed forces of the Crown and other persons, but not any matter within paragraph 14 of Schedule 2 to this Act.It could be argued that there might be a slight area of conflict between these two because some of the powers which are now conferred upon constables and members of the armed forces of the Crown derive from the existing Special Powers Act and will in the future derive from tthe Emergency Powers Act, which we are dealing with upstairs. We welcome the possibility that the whole question of the maintenance of public order—subject, of course, to the success of Section 2 of the Act, subject to anything being transferred at all—may be transferred.It is interesting to note a slight difference in the treatment of these matters as between now and 1920. In 1920 we had a very similar situation in Ulster, there were a high degree of violence, really bitter and intense struggles, murder and bloodshed. Perhaps not on quite the same scale but in essence, the same kind of thing was going on in 1920. Yet in 963 the Act of 1920 brought in by a Liberal Prime Minister, an actual term of reservation of these matters was put in the legislation. Section 9 of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 says:
The Royal Irish Constabulary"—which eventually become the Royal Ulster Constabulary—and the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the management and control of those forces and the administration of the Acts relating thereto, including … shall be reserved matters until such date, not being later than the expiration of three years after the appointed day, as His Majesty in Council may determine … ".So even in those exceedingly difficult and dangerous times it was possible for a Liberal Government to say they would transfer those powers not later than three years after and it was carried out under the Act.It is interesting to put on record that the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the A Special Constabulary, the B Special Constabulary and the C Special Constabulary—because there were three bodies in those days—were the creation of a Liberal Government and a Liberal Prime Minister.
§ Mr. Merlyn ReesA coalition Government.
§ Captain OrrWell, it was a Liberal Prime Minister. They were the creation of the Government of the day in 1920, and it was thought possible then to put a term to the devolution of those powers and the handing over of those splendid forces to the Parliament of Northern Ireland which was then being set up.
Possibly, had one moved an amendment to say that these minimum reserved matters should only be reserved for a maximum of three years, my right hon. Friend would have found a whole series of arguments, convincing or otherwise, why his hands should not be tied to any specific period.
The point I had intended to raise on paragraph 21 has already been dealt with, and I am content, therefore, that this schedule should stand part of the Bill.
§ 8.30 p.m.
§ Mr. McMasterI should like to ask the same question with respect to Schedule 3 as I asked with respect to Schedule 2—namely, whether my hon. Friend can tell me how the matters set 964 out in Schedule 3 will be dealt with by this House. Are they to be dealt with, where they require legislation, by ordinary Bills which can be amended in this House, or are they to be dealt with by orders? That is the first point I am uncertain about.
I fail to see why all the minor matters set out in Schedule 3 cannot be transferred to the Executive in Northern Ireland. It surely casts doubt on the good will of Her Majesty's Government that these matters should be reserved for any length of time to the Westminster Parliament. The schedule mentions such things as trade, navigation, inland waterways, civil aviation, postal services, wireless telegraphy, trade marks, Trustee Savings Banks, even civil defence. It is surely a supreme mark of the lack of confidence on the part of Her Majesty's Government in the Assembly, about to be elected, and the lack of confidence in the Executive, which must first be approved by the Secretary of State, that all these matters must be dealt with by the Westminster Government.
There are certain detailed matters which are vague. We have already referred to paragraph 21 dealing with emergency powers. In paragraph 2 of the schedule we find a double negative. Perhaps my hon. Friend can state what is intended by this. It says that among the minimum reserved matters are:
All matters, other than those specified in paragraph 9 of Schedule 2 to this Act, relating to the Supreme Court of Judicature of Northern Ireland, county courts, courts of summary jurisdiction (including magistrates' courts and juvenile courts) and coroners, including procedure, evidence, appeals, juries costs and legal aid.All these are presumably to be excepted matters held for ever by the imperial Parliament. The paragraph goes on:but not(a) bankruptcy, insolvency, the winding-up of corporate and unincorporated bodies or the making of arrangements or compositions with creditors.Does this mean that all matters other than those specified affecting county courts and the appointment of judges, and bankruptcy, insolvency and the other matters to which I have referred, including the regulation of the profession of solicitors, which are set out in Schedule 3(2)(b), are reserved matters? What is the effect of the double negative?965 Will my hon. Friend deal with paragraph 8 dealing with trade with any place outside the United Kingdom? Why is this a reserved matter? Surely the new Assembly and the Executive will have power to deal with its own external trade. If it is not intended to give it this power at once perhaps my hon. Friend can tell me why.
Generally speaking, I am worried about the width of these exceptions and the number of items included. I do not think it is designed to engender any confidence in the new Assembly. Its effect will be felt particularly by those who give up their time to serve in the new Assembly. This reflects on the Stormont Parliament because in so far as these items are included in the list it must mean that Her Majesty's Government had no confidence in the way they were administered by Stormont.
As a result of years of Republican propaganda, particularly in the last three or four years, there has been too much unjustified criticism of the previous Stormont Government. That Government worked for 50 years to improve conditions in Northern Ireland. If it had not been for the IRA campaign of terrorism and violence in the past three years we in Northern Ireland would have been proud of the way in which not only trade and housing but other matters had been administered by the Stormont Government. We had standards in Northern Ireland which were among the best in the United Kingdom. To take such things as are set out in the schedule away from the new Executive reflects in a most unjustified manner on the way in which Stormont performed its functions.
§ Mr. MolyneauxThere are some words in paragraph 3 that I find puzzling, about the maintenance of public order. I cannot understand what meaning the words can have. What are the instruments to be used, since paragraph 3 is
Without prejudice to paragraphs 4 and 5 below"?What form of legislation could the Assembly possibly pass to deal with these matters? I wonder whether my hon. Friend can give an example of the kind of legislation that might be suggested. 966 We should probably all agree that this paragraph requires a great deal of clarification and far better definition.Then, in paragraph 4, we have a reference to
(d) the treatment of offenders (including children and young persons, and mental health patients, involved in crime)".It may be possible to devolve many of these powers back to Northern Ireland at some time in the future, but I regret very much that that paragraph 4(d) should appear in the schedule, because under the Northern Ireland Mental Health Act the welfare of mental health patients in Northern Ireland is far in advance of anything in existence elsewhere in Great Britain. Their treatment is more closely linked to the Ministry of Health and to the social services, with the new health boards proposed to be brought in before 1st October.How will it be possible, for example, to manage the one security unit, Muckamore Abbey, to which patients are referred from the courts? Will that be treated in isolation from the rest, or will it be under one of the new health boards?
Bearing in mind that the treatment of our mental health patients in Northern Ireland—whether they are offenders or not—is far in advance of anything yet seen in the rest of the United Kingdom, I should like to be assured that this temporary disruption will not do lasting damage.
§ Mr. MaginnisLike my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) I rise to seek clarification. My hon. Friend was rather confused by some of the things in this schedule and he referred particularly to paragraphs 3 and 4. I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister of State to paragraph 5:
The establishment, organisation and control of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and of any other police force … ".This gives rise to doubts whether the RUC will continue, and as we have listened to an assurance given today that there will be no police force other than the Royal Ulster Constabulary I ask my hon. Friend to tell us why this provision is contained in paragraph 5.
§ Mr. David HowellI shall resist the temptation to follow my hon. and gallant 967 Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) into Irish history. He suspected that if he had moved an amendment suggesting a three-year limit on the maintenance of matters concerning law and order as reserved powers my right hon. Friend would have produced a great many arguments to show why he did not want to be tied in that way. My hon. and gallant Friend is absolutely right. My right hon. Friend would have done that and the answers would have been extremely sound. I will not burden the Committee with them, as my hon. and gallant Friend has been kind enough not to put forward such an amendment.
In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Mr. McMaster), Schedule 3 matters will be dealt with either in Bills passing through the House of Commons in the normal way or by legislative procedures and legislation in the Assembly, subject to the procedures and controls set out in Clauses 4, 5 and 6. That philosophy applies to the whole of Schedule 3. It is possible for the Assembly to legislate in these reserved areas subject to the provisions of Clauses 4, 5 and 6. It is hoped that in a number of important areas that is what will happen. This will give the Assembly the opportunity to deal with legislation in many of these areas.
§ Mr. McMasterIf there is to be legislation in the Assembly on these matters, will they be under the control of the Assembly or the Executive? Secondly, will members of the Executive be able to answer questions on matters arising from that legislation?
§ Mr. HowellCertainly they will be able to answer questions where the legislation has gone through the approved procedures both in the Assembly and in relation to my right hon. Friend and—if it should arise—in relation to the House of Commons. I do not think that there is any difficulty about that.
As for the question whether the power to legislate goes with the power to control, the answer is governed by whether the matter is administratively transferred or remains for administrative and statutory purposes under the control of my right hon. Friend. One can think of many items that stretch over the trans- 968 ferred areas—or what, we hope, will be the transferred areas after the first devolution order—and the reserved areas. Those matters are precisely the ones that it is sensible for the Assembly rather than the House of Commons to legislate on.
§ Mr. McMasterHow will the matters be transferred? Will there be an Act of Transfer that will be debated in the House of Commons, or will they be transferred by the Secretary of State administratively, without there being any statement to the House of Commons?
§ Mr. HowellClause 3 sets out exactly how matters will be transferred after the first devolution order.
I am sorry that the meaning of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 is not clear to my hon. Friend. It is clear that the matters specified in paragraph 9 of Schedule 2 relating to the Supreme Court of Judicature, and so on, remain excepted matters. The matters included in paragraphs 2(a) and(b) of Schedule 3—bankruptcy, insolvency, the winding up of corporate and unincorporated bodies, and so on—and the regulation of the profession of solicitors—are in neither of the two schedules and properly fall within the area to be transferred. If that was not clear before, I hope that it is now.
I turn to the subject of trade. Discussions on trade, trade policy and legislation governing trade are obviously three different matters. It is very much to be hoped that the Assembly, as did the previous Stormont Parliament, will concern itself with discussions about trade, with trade promotion and with involving the Ministry of Commerce—with which I have the honour to be concerned—in active efforts to further overseas trade and to attract overseas investment to Northern Ireland. That will go on as before. No legislation governing external trade—that is, trade outside the United Kingdom—was included in the 1920 Act, as I understand it. Therefore, it does not appear in the matters to be transferred in the schedule.
A distinction must be made between the discussion of matters affecting commerce and trade, the promotion of commercial and trade activities and, possibly, the passing of a variety of laws governing internal trade and trade within Northern Ireland, and legislative matters 969 affecting trade overseas which were never within the competence of the Stormont Parliament and are not now, under the Bill, to be placed within the competence of the Assembly.
The proposition that the continuation of this arrangement reflects no confidence in the ability of Northern Ireland to carry on trade and commerce is quite bizarre. I cannot believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East believes it himself. He knows that, confidence or no, the very statistics of performance in Northern Ireland command confidence in themselves, so good has been the trade and commercial effort of Northern Ireland to ride out the appalling difficulties there and to register quite remarkable successes in industrial growth, manufacturing production, and commerce generally. There is no question of there being no confidence in these areas.
My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) asked about the meaning of the words
the maintenance of public orderin paragraph 3. They refer to processions, public events, fetes, shows, and so on—situations where regulations would have to be made governing the way in which processions went, and that kind of thing.My hon. Friend also mentioned paragraph 4(b), dealing with the treatment of offenders. This really means prisons. Again we hope that questions of mental health, child health, and the health of others involved in crime are questions with which the Assembly will be concerned. Where it wished to pass legislation taking it into this reserved area in Schedule 3 it is to be honed that it would proceed to do so, subject always to the provisions set out in Clauses 3 to 6.
§ Mr. MolyneauxI am concerned mainly with the category of mental health patients. The Minister made an unfortunate slip when he said that this provision dealt mainly with prisons. These patients are not treated in anything approaching prison conditions. They are in most enlightened conditions. In my opinion it is a mistake to include them in this provision.
§ Mr. HowellI am the last to say that I do not make slips, but I did not make one in this case. I was referring mainly to prisons when I spoke of the treatment of offenders. The category of mental health patients involved in crime cannot be covered by the word "prisons". Nevertheless, it takes us into crime and crime control. For the time being, therefore, it is a category considered appropriate to be included in the schedule. How long it will be appropriate is a matter for decision and debate. I note my hon. Friend's point, and no doubt it will be raised again as we debate there matters in the future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis) asked about the sinister words—he did not say "sinister", but I think he felt that they were sinister—"any other police force". To remove any doubt, I assure him that there is no ulterior or hidden meaning in those four words. It is a reference to organisations such as the Belfast harbour police. For example, there might be a need for another police force governing a particular commercial area, such as Belfast. This happens in all countries, in a variety of ways. Regulations governing such forces are necessary and changes in those regulations might be required in future.
As for the doubts expressed by my hon. Friend, I hope that he was here at Question Time today when my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) asked me about rumours that the Royal Ulster Constabulary was in some way to be undermined. I asserted as firmly as I could that such rumours had no foundation whatsoever. Therefore, nor have any doubts in my hon. Friend's mind. I hope that my words have removed any doubts that he may have had.
I think that those were the main points about the schedule. I hope that I have fully met the points that have been raised. I recommend that this be the Third Schedule to the Bill.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Schedule 3 agreed to.