THE NORTHERN IRELAND EXECUTIVE

HC Deb 20 June 1973 vol 858 cc750-8

Mr. Biggs-Davison

I beg to move Amendment No. 21, in page 7, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert: '(3) The Chief Executive Member shall be appointed by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty having regard to the provisions of subsection (1)(b) of section 2 of this Act. (3A) The heads of the Northern Ireland Departments shall be appointed by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty on the recommendation of the Chief Executive Member. (3B) The Secretary of State may appoint such number of additional persons (if any) as he thinks fit to discharge, whether as members of the Executive, or otherwise, such functions as he may determine; and any such appointments shall be made on the recommendation of the Chief Executive Member. (3C) The total number of persons at any time holding appointments under this section shall not exceed twelve. (3D) If at any time after the appointed day it should not be possible to make an appointment in the manner prescribed in this section, the Secretary of State may make an appointment, or appointments, which do not comply therewith; but any person so appointed shall not hold office for more than six months'.

The Chairman

With this we may also discuss the following Amendments:

No. 62, in page 7, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert: '(3)(a) The chief executive member shall be appointed by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty; (b) the heads of the Northern Ireland departments shall be appointed by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty on the advice of the chief executive'

No. 23, in page 7, line 6, after 'shall', insert: 'after consultation with the parties in the Assembly'.

No. 24, in page 7, line 22, at end insert: 'but no person shall hold an appointment under this subsection after 30th March 1978'.

No. 25, in page 7, line 23, leave out subsection (6).

Mr. Biggs-Davison

It is my desire that provincial self-government should be restored to Northern Ireland as quickly as possible on an acceptable basis. The recasting of the clause intended by this amendment and others provides for the organisation of the Northern Ireland Executive on the parliamentary lines which are traditional in the United Kingdom and, for that matter, in the Irish Republic.

7.15 p.m.

Amendment No. 21 provides for the appointment of the chief executive member by the Secretary of State who would also choose his cabinet colleagues. This is not a device to frustrate power sharing, whatever that means, because it will be noted that the Secretary of State keeps control of the situation. He would appoint the chief executive member. There would no doubt be a close understanding with the chief executive member about the terms on which he would operate. The Secretary of State would also have power to appoint additional people to the Executive to a number not exceeding 12.

Therefore, the amendment proposes a useful improvement to the Bill, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider it sympathetically.

Mr. Stratton Mills

It is useful to explore the Secretary of State's mind about the procedure on which the Executive shall be formed. I understand from the Bill that after the election and the consultations between the parties the Secretary of State will call on a person whom he sees as being most likely to be acceptable as chief executive and will ask him to engage in talks presumably either directly or on a round table basis, with the Secretary of State with the idea of putting together an Executive. At that stage the chief executive and the Secretary of State will presumably ensure that the Executive is based on the power-sharing provisions of Clause 2.

I understand under Clause 8(3), after the order is passed by the House, the Secretary of State will specifically appoint the chief executive and the additional members who make up the heads of departments in the Executive. I am not sure to what extent my right hon. Friend's rôle will be formal or of a direct and interventionist nature. Perhaps we can have more detail on that point. I propose in Amendment No. 23 that the parties in the Assembly should be consulted before the appointments are made. That is vital because it is essential that the people making up the Eexecutive should be acceptable to as wide a cross section of the heads of parties in the Assembly as can be managed. There are many difficulties, but that is an important principle.

Amendment No. 24 also deals with an important point. It relates to subsection (5), which provides that two additional people who are not members of the Assembly can be brought in as makeweights.

Clause 8 is not a highly desirable clause, but I can see the merit of it in the present situation. A similar situation had to be faced in previous Northern Ireland Governments. In former days the Prime Minister, wishing to broaden his Cabinet, was able to bring in people for a limited period. I can therefore appreciate the merit of having flexibility so that additional people can be brought in to balance the cabinet. To be relevant, those people must have a political standing in their own right and they must represent someone and something if they are to carry weight. The clause is not desirable as a long-term measure, and that is why my amendment proposes a limitation on its use. It enables us to probe the Secretary of State's thinking.

Captain Orr

It may seem curious that my name is on Amendments Nos. 21 and 62. The simple explanation is that they are two shots at drafting which achieve the same result. If my right hon. Friend accepts in principle what we have in mind, we give him a choice of words from which to select.

The substantial point has been put by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison), namely, who will pick the Executive? As the Bill is drafted, the Secretary of State will form the equivalent of the cabinet of Northern Ireland. Presumably after the assembly elections he will consult the parties. He will say, "Will you work with A?" He will ask B whether he will work with C, and he will ask the person he is considering as chief executive whether he will be willing to work with certain people.

That is not the way in which to proceed. An Executive formed in that way will have inherent instability. It will be better if my right hon. Friend, when the Assembly elections are over and the Assembly parties have chosen their leaders, makes a judgment as to which of them is most likely to command a majority in the Assembly and exercises his power by sending for that person and saying to him, "I am of a mind that you should be the chief executive. Tell me whether you can command a majority in the assembly and recommend to me the members of your Executive." It would have been much better in a sense if we had accepted earlier amendments proposing a Governor, because that would have been the function of a Governor.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) rightly asked whether the Secretary of State will act as a political person making a political judgment or whether his action will be purely formal. As the Bill stands, his position is not purely formal. His action is that of a Secretary of State making political judgments. My amendment would change that situation. He would have to make a judgment about the chief executive but, he having made that judgment, all the rest falls upon the advice of that chief executive. It would change my right hon. Friend's function.

I shall be interested to hear my right hon. Friend's arguments for keeping the Bill as it is, but I am inclined to support Amendment No. 21.

Mr. McMaster

I should like to know what form the consultation between the Secretary of State and the chief executive is to take. Clause 25 provides that the heads of the departments shall also be chairmen of consultative committees. Is it in my right hon. Friend's mind that he will consult the chief executive member about which of the members who make up the Executive will be elected to each department, or will this be left to the chief executive member in discussion with the leaders of the various parties returned to the Assembly? Will the appointments then be referred to my right hon. Friend for his approval under the provisions of the clause? 'What will be the degree of consultation?

It is provided that the persons who are appointed to lead the Government—the Executive members—shall also be heads of departments. Is this the best way in which to form the new Executive? Would it not be better to have a division of responsibility and provide that the heads of the departments should not be the same people as the chairmen of consultative committees? Is this a matter which is to be discussed with the Secretary of State?

Captain Orr

I might be able to assist my hon. Friend. He will no doubt recall that Amendment No. 33 on this specific point has been tabled.

Mr. McMaster

I do not wish to anticipate that argument, but I want to find out whether this is covered by Clause 8 and whether the consultation goes to that depth. I hope that my right hon. Friend will clarify this.

[Mr. RICHARD CRAWSHAW in the Chair]

7.30 p.m.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) and other hon. Members who have taken part in the debate for raising an important aspect of the Bill and of the Secretary of State's responsibilities. I hope that I can go some way to clarify their minds and to help them.

If possible, the position of the chief executive must be strengthened at every turn if he is to command the support that is vital to him in carrying out his duties. I have said this before on amendments to Clause 2, which were discussed late at night, but as those remarks have had a limited circulation in print I should like to go back to that point now. Clearly, the Executive must be based on the Assembly. It must be able to command a majority in the Assembly. I think the House accepted the reasons for not tying the Executive to weighty majorities, but when powers are transferred the Executive must get its legislation through the Assembly, and to do so it must have the support of and a majority in the Assembly. Therefore, the Executive must be based on the Assembly. That is fundamental.

Amendment No. 21 provides that the Secretary of State shall appoint the chief executive, and that is where it differs from the Bill. Thereafter, the additional members would be appointed by the Secretary of State on the recommendation of the chief executive. The Bill preserves the position, and I believe that that is right.

There may be occasions when it will be in the interests of everyone for some appointments, after discussion, to be made by the Secretary of State. It might be easier for all concerned to do it in that way. The amendment removes a certain flexibility that is essential.

Nothing would please me more if, after discussion, the chief executive and the leaders of the parties were able to agree amongst themselves and come forward with an agreed list on which the Secretary of State could make his judgment. But I do not think that we can rely on that. The danger of Amendment No. 21 is that it relies upon that happening. There may be occasions when it would not happen, and we must have a certain degree of flexibility to cover that eventuality.

Captain Orr

My right hon. Friend is being helpful and telling us what is in his mind, but in the circumstances he envisages a chief executive could have put into his Executive someone of whom he disapproved.

Mr. Whitelaw

In theory, but in practice if that happened the system would be starting not to work from the word "go". I do not think that would be a sensible way of proceeding. The other side of the coin is that there may be circumstances in which all concerned would be only too pleased to say, "This is what we would like you to do, we have found it difficult to decide and we would prefer you to make the appointment." Amendment No. 21 would prevent that and would remove a degree of flexibility which all concerned might be sorry to see removed.

Captain Orr

Does not the maintenance of the flexibility that my right hon. Friend would make the appointment leave it open to the chief executive to say to his supporters, "I did not want that man, he was forced upon me?"

Mr. Whitelaw

It may leave it open in that way. If we are trying to proceed flexibly with a new endeavour of this sort, all these possibilities undoubtedly exist. Even the well-tried systems that we know in many other places have not removed that possibility. I do not think that we should be too touchy on this point.

Turning now to Amendment No. 23, by which means my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) proposes to insert the words after consultation with the parties in the Assembly", it would be inconceivable and impossible for the Executive to be appointed unless it had a basis in the Assembly. Therefore, it is most important that there should be the consultation to which my hon. Friend refers. However, I am advised that on legal grounds there are difficulties in accepting the amendment as it stands. I am prepared to accept the principle of consultation put forward by my hon. Friend, and on Report I shall be moving an amendment which I hope will give effect to his idea that there should be consultations with the parties in the Assembly before these appointments are made. That also goes some way to meeting the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr).

On Amendment No. 24, proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North, the two additional members are designed for flexibility in circumstances which might arise and which cannot be foreseen at the moment. I am loth to go as far as my hon. Friend wishes in placing limitations on this idea. However, what I propose in answer to Amendment No. 23 may go some way to help on Amendment No. 24. I hope that my hon. Friend will consider what I propose to do on Report on that basis.

The ideal situation would be if, after discussion, it became clear that the leader of the party with the largest number of seats in the Assembly, awl who could be the chief executive, was able, in consultation with the leaders of the other parties, to come forward with an agreed list. But we must preserve the position in the event of that not being achieved, when the other appointments may have to come from the Secretary of State in one way or another.

On Second Reading, I was asked whether the position of the Secretary of State under this clause was formal, or whether he had political judgments to make. I am bound to say, in the first instance, that if it could be formal it would be the best of all worlds. However, there may be circumstances in which the ultimate decision of the Secretary of State has to be exercised. That is the fall-back position which must be preserved.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

I am glad that my right hon. Friend has said that the Executive is to be based on the Assembly. It is ironic that that was the subject of an earlier amendment, which was voted down by an enormous majority—

Mr. Whitelaw

My hon. Friend and I are about the same age in terms of parliamentary experience. I am sure that he will not expect me to swallow that one. The amendment did a great deal more than that.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

It is not my wish to press Amendment No. 21 to a Division, but I should like to be clear that it is the intention of my right hon. Friend that the heads of the Northern Ireland departments will normally be appointed on the recommendation of the chief executive. We hope that a convention of that kind will develop.

Mr. Whitelaw

I very much hope so, and I agree with my hon. Friend that that would be desirable.

Perhaps I can take this opportunity to repair an omission. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) asked about the position of the heads of departments also being chairmen of committees. This can be argued both ways, of course. My hon. Friend argues that it would be better to divorce the two. The Bill keeps them together. If they are divorced there is the danger of building in an area of conflict and controversy that will be undesirable. However, it can be argued both ways. It is difficult to be dogmatic about it.

Mr. McMaster

Does my right hon. Friend anticipate taking part in consultations with the chief executive officer as to which members shall be responsible for which departments?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have said in general terms that I hope very much that it will be possible for the chief executive and the leaders of the parties joining him in the Executive to put forward their own list. But if he wished to consult me, or if I felt it necessary to consult him, inevitably that would have to happen. If it were possible for him to come forward with a generally agreed list, no one would be more pleased than I.

Mr. Stratton Mills

I am grateful for my right hon. Friend's acceptance of the principle behind Amendment No. 23. I should like to put it on record that to date this is the first amendment to have been accepted in principle. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend.

Amendment negatived.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.