HC Deb 12 June 1973 vol 857 cc1179-81
4. Mr. Ashley

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what recent representations he has received concerning his policy towards improving the employment prospects of disabled people; and what replies he has sent.

Mr. Dudley Smith

My right hon. Friend is in constant touch with individuals and organisations concerned with these matters, including the National Advisory Council on the Employment of the Disabled, on a wide variety of topics. I shall be happy to write to the hon. Member giving details of any particular representations he may have in mind, and of the replies that we have sent.

Mr. Ashley

In his consultative document the Minister has now recognised our criticism of the existing scheme for helping disabled people, and I welcome that. Is he aware, however, that the best solution is to make all employers pay for a quota whether or not they employ disabled people so that the shoe is neatly placed under the foot? Instead of disabled people asking employers for work, employers would then be asking disabled people to work for them and those employers who would not give them work would properly be penalised.

Mr. Smith

I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree that the document is very fair concerning the quota and examines a wide variety of possibilities, including tougher enforcement and financial incentives to employers to employ disabled people. I do not rule out the suggestion which he makes, which can be another factor to be considered. The important thing is to get the right consensus as to what should be done and to make it more effective in terms of the employment of disabled people.

Mr. Marten

Could not more encouragement be given to local authorities to persuade them to increase the number of disabled people they employ?

Mr. Smith

Yes, Sir, and we are all the time endeavouring to make sure that public sources fulfil their quotas and employ as many disabled people as possible. My hon. Friend will be glad to know that unemployment among the disabled fell substantially during the last year, from 91,063 to 77,360. The figure is still too high, and the more we can encourage both public and private sources to take action in this respect the better.

Mr. Elystan Morgan

The hon. Gentleman referred to tougher enforcement. In what year did the last prosecution of an employer under the 1944 Act take place?

Mr. Smith

The last one, speaking from memory, was some years ago—I think in the early 1960s or late 1950s. We have debated this matter in the Welsh Grand Committee. Successive Governments have taken the view that persuasion is better than coercion. It may be that public opinion now feels that there should be greater coercion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] Hon. Members may take that view, but this has been spelt out conclusively in the quota document, and it is a matter for detailed consideration. There are those who believe that tougher penalties will not lead to the employment of more disabled people.

Sir B. Rhys Williams

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to encourage disabled people to seek employment is to introduce a disability income which would enable them to be independent even when they can only earn low wages? Since the employment of the disabled is only one aspect of the problem, does my hon. Friend agree to collaborate with the Department of Health and Social Security and to produce a Green Paper setting out the Government's whole policy for helping the disabled?

Mr. Smith

That is a little wide of my remit, but all these matters relating to the employment of the disabled are under consideration and we are in contact with the Department of Health and Social Security on matters in which our responsibilities involve disabled people.

Mr. Prentice

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm the 1972 figure of about 9,000 firms in breach of the law by being below the quota without permission from his Department? Does he not feel that this is an intolerable situation? We waited a long time for the consultative documents and the hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of opinion-forming, but what are the other alternatives? What sort of timetable does he envisage, and what specific proposals has he to deal with the problem?

Mr. Smith

The right hon. Gentleman will know that the law in this respect has been in operation for 30 years and one does not change it overnight. We have given a reasonable period for consultation and a number of opinions will be flowing in. I hope that by the end of the year we shall be able to form some conclusion on the quota system. This is tied up with the other aspect of the problems of the disabled. It is true that there are a number of firms which do not fulfil their quota obligations or get exemption permits, but there are difficulties in enforcement and sometimes difficulty in getting the right sort of disabled people into employment because they are not suitable for specific jobs.