§ 7. Mr Johnasked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the intentions of his office towards the investigation of the environmental position at Maendy and Brofiscun quarries.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI have had this matter under review for a considerable time. A continuing programme of invesgation and monitoring has been carried out. On the basis on an extensive series of tests, the best advice available to me is that there is no evidence to suggest any immediate public health hazard from the situation at these quarries. There is no danger of contamination of public water supplies. As regards possible contamination of the food chain I am also advised that the evidence does not indicate any immediate hazards. Only this morning I have received the results of tests carried out last Friday of milk from four Maendy farms. The public analyst's department of Glamorgan County Council has reported that these milk samples are free from polychlorinated biphenyls. I recognise that there is public concern in this matter and investigations will continue into all aspects of it.
In the light of the evidence, I stand ready to take whatever action is appropriate. I will ensure that the public is kept fully informed of the progress of these continuing investigations.
With permission, I will circulate fuller details of this answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. JohnIs the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the public are by now thoroughly dissatisfied not only with the results of the tests carried out by the Welsh Office but with the methods used by the Welsh Office in obtaining the 969 results? Does he not realise that what is called for is a speedy, complete and integrated investigation of the two tips involved by Government Departments, including the Department of the Environment and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? The right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer falls a long way short of such an integrated investigation.
Is the Secretary of State further aware that what the local populace demands is urgent action following such an investigation? Has he found evidence of TOCP from the tip, and, if so, in what quantities? I urge him that any special action which is required to make these tips safe for the locality should be taken by the Welsh Office and that any question of who is responsible for taking such action should be considered only after the public is protected. The Welsh Office has been too complacent. It is time that the situation was remedied.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI deny emphatically that the Welsh Office has been complacent. Tipping stopped in these two quarries in 1970. There had been uncontrolled tipping, apart from the planning agreement, for five years. Since then my office has been concerned to ensure that there is no danger to public health.
The hon. Gentleman asked for an integrated investigation. That is precisely what is taking place. Monitoring is continuing. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman and the public for which he considers he speaks should look at the details of my answer before exaggerated statements are made. I understand that there is public concern about these matters. However, we must take care not to give currency to exaggerated reports of danger to public health. I have received expert advice from medical toxicologists, chemists and engineers within the Government service and I am satisfied that there is no immediate danger to public health. I need hardly tell the House that if there were any risk of that sort I should take immediate action.
§ Mr. GowerIs my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, according to information given to me by several local authorities, one of the major problems is the treatment and disposal of industrial 970 and domestic waste? As that problem is related closely to the Question, may I ask whether it would not be opportune to have a departmental or some other form of inquiry into the whole problem?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI do not think that the situation calls for an inquiry at the moment in respect of these two quarries. Monitoring is continuing. There is a full interdepartmental investigation. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that since we have been in office we have passed an Act which deals with the problem he has mentioned.
§ Mr. George ThomasI acknowledge that the Secretary of State must accept the advice of his experts. I recall, however, that my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) has asked at least 12 Questions about the quarries over a period of two years. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the public unease in the community, due to the publicity given to the presence of poisons, is such that he should take immediate steps to seal off the quarry? We should not gamble in any way with a possible future risk. We have received a very grave warning. A terrible responsibility would be placed on the right hon. and learned Gentleman if in future it was discovered that people had suffered as a result of toxic substances.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and of course a responsibility rests on me. I hope the House will accept that, if I felt that there was a danger to public health, I would not hesitate to take such action as lies within my means. But the right hon. Gentleman knows—I have had a lot of correspondence with his hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John)—that the fear was about PCB. I have given the House the results of tests which indicate that some of the fears which have been expressed are without foundation. These tests and investigations will continue.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned TOCP, which has been mentioned in the newspapers. Scares have been started. We were told about this by a consultant, who is engaged in litigation, only on Friday. Investigations took place immediately. We will continue with these investigations 971 and the full services of the Government Analyst and of all Departments will be involved.
§ Mr. Cledwyn HughesWhen will the investigations to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred be concluded? In order to allay the considerable public concern which exists in Pontypridd and, indeed, throughout Wales about this matter, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman undertake to publish a report of these investigations so that we may debate the matter in full in due course?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasYes, Sir. I am perfectly happy that the results of all the investigations should be made public. I am happy to give full information to any right hon. or hon. Member. I will consider whether a report should be published.
Following is the information:My Department has had the situation at these quarries, where waste, including chemical waste, was tipped from 1965 to 1970, under close review with particular reference to the possible presence of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), in water draining from the quarries.My Department has arranged for the laboratory of the Government Chemist to analyse water samples from the immediate vicinity of the quarries for PCBs and, in conjunction with the Glamorgan River Authority, for 20 other possible chemical contaminants. Something in the region of 400 determinations have been made and for most chemicals the levels were below the limits of detection. PCBs were found to be present but at levels which I am advised were toxicologically negligible.At the request of my Department the staff of the Water Pollution Research Laboratory have visited the quarries and have taken water samples and analysed them for PCBs as well as for other chemicals. The results for PCBs show extremely low levels. Staff of the WPRL and of the Water Resources Board will collect further water samples and sediment, soil and herbage over a wide area surrounding the quarries.The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is undertaking sampling to determine possible contamination of the food chain in the light of the results obtained by the laboratory of the Government Chemist, the Glamorgan River Authority and WPRL. Milk is being sampled on one farm in each of the areas of the two quarries concerned and on another farm unconnected with them to act as a control. Analyses of these samples for PCBs and other chemicals will be undertaken by the laboratory of the Government Chemist and routine tests of milk quality for human consumption will also be undertaken by the Ministry's own laboratory. Further sampling972and analysis of milk and animal tissue will be undertaken if the initial milk test shows this to be necessary.The Glamorgan River Authority, the authority with statutory responsibility for water quality, has been discussing with the firm responsible for the tipping various possible methods of preventing contaminants leaching out of the quarries. The Glamorgan County Council as planning authority has also been involved in discussions with the firm.The quarries contain very large quantities of chemical waste. As with all tips of waste materials, irrespective of whether they contain normal waste or chemical waste, parents would be advised to take normal precautions to keep their children away. Farmers have been advised to fence off their stock from water which may be contaminated. As long as normal common sense precautions are taken and unless some new factors come to light, I do not consider the public to be at risk.There was and is no danger of contamination of public water supplies, since none are derived from the streams in the areas surrounding the quarries. As regards possible contamination of the food chain, I am advised that the available evidence does not suggest that there is any immediate public health hazard. I will, however, keep the position under the closest review and will ensure that quick and effective action is taken if new evidence calls for it. I will also ensure that the public are kept informed.