HC Deb 17 July 1973 vol 860 cc401-3

Lords Amendment: No. 2, in page 25, line 32, at end insert: (5) Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision with respect to the appointment of lord-lieutenants, lieutenants and deputy lieutenants in Northern Ireland, for conferring on them functions which apart from the Order would be exercisable by lieutenants in Northern Ireland, for altering the designation of vice-lieutenants in Northern Ireland and for matters incidental to or consequential on any provision so made, including the amendment or repeal of any enactment passed before this Act. (6) An Order in Council under subsection (5) above may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order.

The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell)

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

The main effect of the amendment is to introduce the rank of lord lieutenant into Northern Ireland. The House will recall that there was some discussion of issues related to this on Report. Under the existing law, each county in Northern Ireland has a lieutenant, in exactly the same way as each county in Great Britain has. The only difference between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is that lieutenants in Northern Ireland are appointed under existing law by the Governor, while in Great Britain they are appointed by Her Majesty.

Following local government reorganisation in Scotland and in England and Wales, the present system of appointments in Great Britain is to be changed so that, with effect from April 1974, there will be a lord lieutenant in each of the new counties in England and Wales. With effect from April 1975 there will also be a lord lieutenant for each of th. new Scottish regions and island areas. There is provision for each lord lieutenant to be supported in his area by one or more lieutenants.

The simple purpose of the amendment is to enable suitable and similar changes to be made in Northern Ireland in due course. It would in our view be wrong if provision were not made for the dignity of Her Majesty's representatives in Northern Ireland to be raised to the rank of lord lieutenant when they are being raised to that rank in Great Britain.

The proposed new subsections will enable Her Majesty to make appropriate provision for the appointment of lord lieutenants and lieutenants in Northern Ireland. It would be impossible to say at this stage what arrangements will be decided upon by Her Majesty. The representation of the Crown in Northern Ireland, as in any other part of the United Kingdom, is a matter for Her Majesty herself, and it would be improper to attempt to forecast the view which might be taken. But the amendment makes it possible for future arrangements to be organised as desired.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds. South)

It seems reasonable that we should bring the arrangements for lieutenancy into line with the new arrangements which are to come in Great Britain following local government reform, with lord lieutenancy, lieutenancy and deputy lieutenancy.

I am surprised to hear that prior to this there were no lord lieutenants in this part of the United Kingdom but only lieutenants. It seems that many people have been masquerading for a very long time. However, if that is so I must accept it.

I want to raise two matters very briefly. I do not understand why the new clause is worded: Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision with respect to the appointment. Why is the word "may" used? Surely the whole purport of the Minister's argument is that this is "required". Why should it be only "may" in the future? What possibility could there be of this not having to be done, in view of the Minister's positive words? We are surprised that it is phrased thus.

I realise that I am on delicate ground, but referring to the phrase may by Order in Council would that Order in Council come before the House? I know that the major part of this matter would be on the Royal Prerogative and at the discretion of Her Majesty. But it is not clear what form of Order in Council is involved.

I realise that I am on difficult constitutional ground and that the appointment of lieutenants of these three types is in the hands of Her Majesty, but—

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.