PROCEDURE (Hansard, 3 July 1973)

§ Mr. Whitelaw
I beg to move Amendment No. 12, in page 17, line 40, after 'shall', insert ', subject to subsection (5A) below,'.
I was asked in Committee to consider the possibility of introducing more flexibility into the position whereby the chairmen of the committees should be the same people as the heads of Northern Ireland Departments. I assured my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that I would consider this point. In that debate I said: Frankly, I believe that the way we are proposing is right. I do not wish to fob off my right hon. or hon. Friends by saying that I am impressed to the point of changing it. But having heard their arguments it would be wrong for me not to say that I shall consider them, without commitment. on the basis that it may be right to proceed in the way we propose and that it may be wrong to be totally inflexible about it. What I have sought to do with these amendments is to meet both points. We are providing that all heads of Northern Ireland Departments should be chairmen of consultative committees, but we are taking power to change that by Order in Council at a later date, should that prove to be the right thing to do. These amendments meet more than I promised in Committee and I hope that they will be accepted on that basis.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills
I take it that Amendment No. 13 is being taken with this, as it is on the same point. When my 350 right hon. Friend said that he will see how it will be done I take it he means that this will be in consultation with the parties in the Assembly, and that Her Majesty's Government will consult with them while in process of drawing up the rules and orders of the Assembly and in process of forming the Executive, and that generally he will take the parties' views.
I believe this is important. The Government have given themselves this additional flexibility, and I am hopeful that a greater range of posts and of areas of responsibility will be available for Members of the Assembly to fill, giving them a direct stake in the operation of the Assembly. By this process a certain number of additional posts of responsibility are provided for members of the Assembly. I appreciate that my right hon. Friend has only taken powers to do it but on balance it seems that this is something which should be welcomed.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)
If it is the wish of the House I am quite happy to take Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 together.

§ Captain Orr
I ant obliged for that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I had assumed that we were also discussing Amendment No. 13. I believe that this arose out of an amendment of mine in Committee, on which I argued that chairmanship of committees should be quite separate from the heads of Departments; in other words, I was thinking of assemblies in parliamentary functions. It seems to me that it would be quite wrong to marry the two.
My right hon. Friend was not able to accept my amendment, but this gives him flexibility to accept the spirit of my amendment if, in practice, it is made plain to him that it would be a sensible thing to do. I welcome it. My right hon. Friend has been helpful and constructive in that sense. I am not sure that I go entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills). The creation of "jobs for the boys" is not the best way of looking at a new constitution, and I would not endorse what he has said. But I welcome what my right hon. Friend has done in these two amendments and I hope the House will pass them.

§ Mr. McMaster
I welcome the amendment, which we argued in Committee. My only regret is that it has been put in this form, giving the Secretary of State power to make these changes if he thinks them advisable. I still feel, as I argued in Committee, that it would have been much better to start from the word "go" with the heads of the various committees not being members of the Executive. That would have given the heads of committees a great deal more independence and perhaps an ability to influence Government in Northern Ireland. in so far as powers are being devolved on the Northern Ireland Assembly. But I feel that it would have been much better had this formed part of the legislation starting with the commencement of the Bill.