§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonI beg to move Amendment No. 9, in page 8, line 6, leave out Clause 10.
345 The purpose of the amendment is not to attack or impugn the manner in which my right hon. and learned Friend has discharged his difficult office as Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, but if the Bill is designed to find an acceptable basis for the devolution of powers and responsibilities to institutions in Northern Ireland there is no reason why Northern Ireland should not have its own Attorney-General. The onus of establishing that Northern Ireland should not have its own Attorney-General would be upon the Government.
I speak as one unlearned in the law, but I understand that there are divergencies between the law obtaining in Northern Ireland and that obtaining on this side of the channel.
For example, the law applying to Northern Ireland dates to the period before the Act of Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The statute law enacted since the State of Northern Ireland was set up in 1920 is different in certain respects. There have been Acts of the Northern Ireland Parliament as well as Acts of the Imperial Parliament applying to Northern Ireland.
On a more practical note, the Attorney-General has responsibilities connected with the security of the Province. This is a thorny question but as my right hon. and learned Friend will have observed from the Notice Paper, my hon. Friends and I are anxious that responsibility for the internal security of Northern Ireland should pass into Ulster hands at the earliest possible moment.
We shall lay firm foundations for future law and order only if security within the Province—and I do not speak of the rôle of Her Majesty's Forces—is discharged by local men with local knowledge. This seems to be an additional reason why we should earnestly consider whether there ought not to be an Attorney-General for Northern Ireland.
§ The Attorney-General (Sir Peter Rawlinson)I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) for the personal approach that he made at the beginning of his remarks in moving this amendment. I appreciate what he and others of my hon. Friends have in mind. I will try to explain what lies behind the proposal that the Attorney-General of Northern Ire 346 land should also be the Attorney-General for England and Wales—and, because we are dealing with a Northern Irish Bill, I put it that way rather than the other.
The Attorney-General has two rôles to fulfil. He is, first, Counsel to the Crown and Government. This applies to an Attorney-General wherever he may be. That means that he is the legal adviser and is not answerable to Parliament for that advice. He may be answerable to his colleagues, or he may be answerable in the courts for that advice, but he is not answerable to Parliament.
In his second rôle he has ultimate responsibility and answerability to Parliament for the processes of criminal prosecution. That is an important matter, which is kept strictly outside the province of his colleagues. When he is answering for prosecutions he acts independently of his colleagues, informing them if necessary, seeking, if he wishes it, their opinion on matters of public interest. But he is not affected by their views.
As my hon. Friend will appreciate, there has been established a Northern Ireland Office of Director of Public Prosecutions. That is an office the appointments to which fall within the excepted powers of the Bill. As the Director of Public Prosecutions is responsible for prosecutions in the Province some Minister has to be answerable for his acts. In the same way as I am answerable at this Box for the acts of the Director of Public Prosecutions for England and Wales and have to bear responsibility for that which he has done or failed to do, so there must be a Minister who can answer for the Director of Public Prosecutions of Northern Ireland.
It would be wholly undesirable if the Secretary of State had to answer. The separation of these powers of public prosecution from the Executive is of the greatest importance and is jealously guarded. The Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland is Mr. Shaw and his deputy is Mr. McCloskey. Any future appointments will be removable only by the Attorney-General. In conducting prosecutions these people should be like members of the judiciary, who are appointed by the Lord Chancellor. These matters are essentially the responsibility of Westminster. If we were to 347 have an Attorney-General for Northern Ireland we would not be able to have responsibility to Westminster, where ultimate responsibility must lie.
§ 8.15 p.m.
§ I concede that an Attorney-General for Northern Ireland has certain other functions. My hon. Friend is correct in saying that there are differences in the law, but they are not very great. The common law is common to both Northern Ireland and England. The differences in the statute law are mainly matters of procedure, although there are some matters of substance. As to security, there are only those two rôles that the Attorney-General has to fulfil. He has the duty to advise on matters of law and he is responsible for prosecutions. It is for him to answer if prosecutions are not carried out fairly, honestly and decently in the Province by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I do not believe that anyone would level that accusation against Mr. Barry Shaw or Mr. McCloskey but if they ever did, it would be for me to answer.
§ There is already a junior counsel in the Attorney-General's office in Northern Ireland. I propose to appoint a senior counsel and these would be my standing counsel in matters of charities and would be also available to advise the Executive if necessary. They would be able to act when required for the Crown and the Director of Public Prosecutions in difficult and important cases.
§ This is part of the framework of the Bill—that there shall be judges appointed by the Lord Chancellor and responsible, in so far as they are responsible to anyone, to this House, and that prosecutions shall be in the hands of the Director of Public Prosecutions, answerable to the House through the Attorney-General. This calls for the retention of Clause 10. It is for these and other reasons that I suggest to my hon. Friend that the proposal in the Bill, although it may add to the burdens of whoever holds the office, is one that can be carried out, leaving the functions to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who is assembling his staff. He will shortly have a full complement. This system is in the best interests of the Province.
348§ Captain OrrI endorse what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) about the quality of the work of my right hon. and learned Friend. There is no reflection upon the way in which he has carried out what has become a great burden. Later in the week we shall be concerned with other legislation in which he has had a hand. In addition, the present state of Northern Ireland automatically puts a heavy burden upon him. We think he was carrying out his responsibilities with great ability and impartiality. Obviously, if the House were to carry this amendment it would make the Bill even more nonsensical than it is—and I am sure that my hon. Friend has every intention of asking leave to withdraw it when the time comes, because where we have a Director of Public Prosecutions in Ulster and a system where all matters concerning internal security, law and order, the police, and everything else, are presently reserved to this House, it would probably be a nonsense to have a separate Attorney-General for Northern Ireland.
That does mean, however, that we depart from our view as to what ought to happen ultimately. We believe that these matters should ultimately return to a Northern Ireland authority. In that context, we most certainly think there is one office that ought to be transferred with everything else—the office of Attorney General. My right hon. and learned Friend rightly pointed out that one of the principal functions of an Attorney General is to advise the Executive. Of course, if one envisages the executive responsibility for internal security returning to Northern Ireland it would seem very strange to reserve for ever the position of Attorney-General, and not to have a separate Attorney-General for Northern Ireland in that situation.
I believe, none the less, that as things now stand, with the Directorate of Public Prosecutions being an excepted matter—it is a great pity that it should be—and as one takes the view, as I do, that the Bill cannot have very long duration, I should be perfectly happy if my hon. Friend felt able to ask leave to withdraw his amendment.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonI beg to ask leave of the House to withdraw this amendment. In doing so I express my agreement with what my right hon. and learned 349 Friend said in praise of Mr. Barry Shaw and Mr. McCluskey. Their burdens are very heavy and dangerous, as are those of the magistrates and all in the Judiciary in Northern Ireland and deserve our thanks and support.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.