HC Deb 03 July 1973 vol 859 cc383-7
Mr. Biggs-Davison

I beg to move Amendment No. 23, in page 23, line 46, at end insert: '(4) The senior holder of the office of Her Majesty's Lieutenant in Northern Ireland shall be designated Her Majesty's Lord Lieutenant of Northern Ireland and shall carry out such functions in the absence of Her Majesty as Her Majesty may determine'. On Second Reading much mention was made of the Governor of Northern Ireland. I moved an amendment and I tabled others for the retention of his office. In so doing I voiced the bitter resentment of thousands of Ulster folk of different denominations and opinions—a resentment that is shared by British people on this side of the Irish Sea. I established that a Governor and a Secretary of State could co-exist, as did the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary before partition. My right hon. Friend remained adamant. This rather distressed my hon. Friends and myself but we did not think that the will of Parliament would be anticipated, or appear to be anticipated, by the sudden departure of the Governor from his post.

Until Royal Assent is signified to the Bill the office of Governor continues and continues to be held. I suppose, by its present holder, Lord Grey. I should like to ask, before proceeding to the subject matter of the amendment, whether His Excellency is now on leave, what are the arrangements for the discharge of his office in his absence and who is now acting—and, if the Bill reaches the statute book, who will act—as keeper of the Great Seal of Northern Ireland? I can assure the Irish Times whose representative conjectured whether cruelty to animals legislation might be invoked, that this is a matter of high constitutional moment. I hope that we might have a reply from my right hon. Friend.

My right hon. Friend made one pleasing gesture in replying in Committee. I do not have the words before me and they are not easily obtainable, but he referred to the position of Her Majesty's lieutenants and deputy lieutenants of counties in Ulster. We have tabled an amendment that follows from the hint dropped by my right hon. Friend. The amendment reads: The senior holder of the office of Her Majesty's Lord Lieutenant in Northern Ireland shall be designated Her Majesty's Lord Lieutenant of Northern Ireland and shall carry out such functions in the absence of Her Majesty as Her Majesty may determine. In other amendments it was proposed that the Lord Lieutenant should hold viceregal office in Northern Ireland and might perform ceremonial functions that the Secretary of State would clearly not wish to perform, carry out certain duties in connection with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and be responsible for the appointment of certain non-political offices. All those matters could be brought within the purview of a Lord Lieutenant such as is suggested in the amendment.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will feel sympathetic to what we are trying to do. If he does, that would do something to heal the hurt which has been inflicted by the deprivation of the traditional, direct and personal representation of the Monarch.

Rev. Ian Paisley

I support the amendment that has been so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). Perhaps the House is not aware of the deep feeling in Northern Ireland about the removal of the Governor. I do not go along with those who say that the Governor should be kept just as a figurehead. The Governor had an important part to play in the constitution of Northern Ireland, in that we had a Parliament, a Senate and a Commons, and the Governor acted as the representative of the Queen. The Queen's Ministers in Northern Ireland, in consultation with the Government, formed the Privy Council of Northern Ireland.

There should be a personal representative of Her Majesty the Queen in Northern Ireland. The amendment, in many ways, meets the wishes of a vast section of the people of Northern Ireland. It is only right that there should be someone of a non-political character to fill the vacuum.

I know that the Government have argued that Her Majesty or members of the Royal Family may or will visit Northern Ireland. Those of us who know the reality of the situation, and the reality of security, know that the only place, for security reasons where even members of the Assembly could meet would probably be at Stormont. We cannot see Her Majesty or members of the Royal Family visiting Northern Ireland in the near future. If it were proposed by the Government that such a visit should take place there would be indignation that members of the Royal Family might be put at risk.

The amendment meets a need and fills a vacuum. Not only that, it helps to heal a deep wound that has been inflicted on the people of Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State, in a short term of office, knows very well the feelings of the people. I do not think that any other Minister could have cottoned on so quickly to the reactions of the people. I commend the amendment to the House. If the right hon. Gentleman is not able to accept it, after the Bill has gone through another place lie may consider whether something on the lines of the amendment should be put into the Bill.

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) mentioned the security situation and visits from a member of the Royal Family. Obviously, I have particular responsibility for the security situation. I do not agree with what the hon. Gentleman says, and I do not think that the people of Northern Ireland and members of the Royal Family would take the hon. Gentleman's view. I think it would be possible for such a visit to take place. The Royal Family are extremely anxious that it should be possible.

I now turn to the matters which have been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). I shall not go back over the arguments which we have had about the office of Governor. My hon. Friend has made his point, and I fully appreciate the arguments which have been put forward. As the hon. Member for Antrim, North has said, I know the feelings which have been aroused and understand them.

In Committee my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) asked me whether the possibility of having a chief lieutenant in Northern Ireland had been considered. I told him that I had no doubt that the possibility could be considered, but I pointed out that it was for Her Majesty to decide and that it would be wrong for me to express a view. I added that I knew of nothing constitutionally against such a course but the matter did not come within the ambit of the Bill. That still holds true.

The discharge of Her Majesty's functions in Northern Ireland, as in any other part of the United Kingdom, is a matter for the Queen herself. She appoints her lieutenants in Northern Ireland for the counties. They are non-political appointments and, equally, they are the people who can and, in my judgment, should, carry out the ceremonial functions previously carried out by the Governor. it is for Her Majesty to decide whether she would wish to appoint one of the lieutenants above the others. I understand that it would be possible for her to do so. She can at any time decide that some particular ceremonial function will be carried out by one of the lieutenants or, indeed, by others. It is basically for her to decide how she would wish this to be carried out.

It would, therefore, be wrong to express such a position in the Bill. I am advised that it would not be right. It is a prerogative matter. The Queen herself appoints her lieutenants to the counties, and if she so wished there is no doubt that it would be appropriate for her to decide that one of her lieutenants was senior to the others.

Rev. Ian Paisley

As Secretary of State, could not the right hon. Gentleman advise Her Majesty upon such an appointment?

Mr. Whitelaw

I would not off the cuff wish to comment on the precise constitional position, but, equally, I know very well that the arguments put forward in the debate can be communicated and will certainly be studied. It would be wrong for me to go further than that.

The lieutenants for the counties in Northern Ireland are appointed by the Queen as her representatives in those counties, as they are in other parts of the United Kingdom, and I hope that now that there is no longer a governor, following the passage of the Bill, they will discharge the ceremonial functions as is appropriate. I hope that they will be asked to do so, and I know that they will be ready and anxious so to do. That is the right way to proceed.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell asked about the office of Governor and the position of Lord Grey. The office continues until the Bill receives the Royal Assent. Lord Grey's commission was revoked as from 30th June. I shall have to take advice about the Keeper of the Great Seal, and I will let my hon. Friend know the answer.

I think I have shown the anxiety of the Government that the lieutenants should carry out the ceremonial functions. They are appointed by Her Majesty, and I believe that to be the right position. The question of whether one should be designated above the others is for Her Majesty to decide when she comes to make up her mind about how functions should be discharged in Northern Ireland. I undertake that this short debate will be communicated to those concerned, and I hope that with that assurance my hon. Friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

I can hardly wait for the information about the Keeper of the Great Seal. I have no wish to trespass on the Royal Prerogative in any way, and, responding to the manner in which my right hon. Friend has spoken, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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