§ Mr. Maurice MacmillanI beg to move Amendment No. 10, in page 9, line 31, at end insert:
'(6) This section shall have effect only during any period in which Part II of this Act is in force; but the power conferred by subsection (1) above shall continue to be exercisable, at any time when Part II has ceased to be in force, for the purpose of acquiring information or documents in relation to the bringing of proceedings for an offence under Part II or the doing of anything preparatory, or with a view, to the bringing of such proceedings'.I need not detain the House long in explaining the purpose of the amendment. It is an extra subsection to Clause 12. It limits the operation of Clause 12 to the period in which the statutory powers of Part II are in force. The clause deals with the powers of Ministers and the agencies to obtain information and to do so, if necessary, by compulsion. The amendment limits the use of these powers to the period when Part II of the Bill is in force. There is a carryover provision to ensure that the agencies can continue after the end of the statutory policy to receive information about anything which is done during that period. That is to ensure, for example, that in the last stages of the statutory period there is no deliberate evasion in the knowledge that information need not be given about activities during the statutory period once the statutory period has expired.I understand that this is a common provision in regulations of this nature. We have debated the clause very fully in Committee. All I need say in moving the amendment is that its simple purpose is to limit the operation of Clause 12 to the period during which the statutory powers of Part II are in force.
§ Mr. BennI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the amendment. I have a feeling that I had something to do with it because I made a speech in Committee about information and its value. I had a feeling then that some of the Secretary of State's hon. Friends were somewhat frightened to reflect on what it meant.
Information is the key to all effective planning by the Government, and this 1597 was recognised in any case by the introduction of Clause 12. It leads to a change in the relationship between the Government and industry, because if the Government know what industry is doing they are better able to influence industry's decisions, and since the object of the policy is to allow the Government to influence industrial decisions the Government cannot operate without such information.
The Government themselves, as a political party, are very sensitive about information. When I read the amendment the other day, I came across a moving pamphlet called "Free Enterprise or Socialism". It was issued at the last General Election by the Conservative Central Office. In it was one of the great dire warnings by the Conservative Party. It said that if Labour were re-elected there would be ever-increasing direction of the economy by the Government with all the demands for detailed information thereby entailed. That is true. Even the present Government cannot run their policy without a great deal of information.
The solution adopted by the right hon. Gentleman is simple. It is to say that
§ when the statutory period of the policy comes to an end the policy is to be followed thereafter without any information required by law. This is nonsense, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it. If he wants to run a voluntary policy—and I must give him credit for trying to want to run one—he can do so only if he has information available to him to let him know whether it is succeeding or failing and whether statutory back-up powers might be needed.
§ However, since the right hon. Gentleman himself moved Amendment No. 3 earlier, providing that statutory powers can run for three years, it is clear that they will run for three years and that over that three-year period there will be a statutory requirement for information to be made available. Even so, this is an important enough point for us to insist on the original wording of the Bill, and I invite my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against the amendment.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 206.s
1601| Division No. 72.] | AYES | [8.23 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Fry, Peter |
| Alison, Michael (Barkslon Ash) | Channon, Paul | Galbralth, Hn. T. G. D. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Chapman, Sydney | Gibson-Watt, David |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) |
| Astor, John | Chichester-Clark, R. | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Glyn, Dr. Alan |
| Awdry, Daniel | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Godber, Rt. Hn J. E. |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Clegg, Walter | Goodhart, Philip |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Cockeram, Eric | Goodhew, Victor |
| Batsford, Brian | Cooke, Robert | Gorst, John |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Coombs, Derek | Gower, Raymond |
| Bell, Ronald | Cooper, A. E. | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick | Gray, Hamish |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Costain, A. P. | Green, Alan |
| Benyon, W. | Critchley, Julian | Grieve, Percy |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Crowder, F. P. | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) |
| Biffen, John | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Grylls, Michael |
| Biggs-Davison, John | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj.-Gen.Jack | Gummer, J. Selwyn |
| Blaker, Peter | Dean, Paul | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Body, Richard | Dixon, Piers | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Boscawen, Hn. Robert | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Drayson, G. B. | Hannam, John (Exeter) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Dykes, Hugh | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Bray, Ronald | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Brewis, John | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Hastings, Stephen |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Emery, Peter | Havers, Michael |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Eyre, Reginald | Hawkins, Paul |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Farr, John | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Heseltine, Michael |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Hicks, Robert |
| Buck, Antony | Fookes, Miss Janet | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Fortescue, Tim | Hiley, Joseph |
| Burden, F. A. | Foster, Sir John | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Fowler, Norman | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn) | Fox, Marcus | Holland, Philip |
| Carlisle, Mark | Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | Holt, Miss Mary |
| Hordern, Peter | Mitchell. Lt.-Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Hornby, Richard | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Soref, Harold |
| Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Moate, Roger | Speed, Keith |
| Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Molyneaux, James | Spence, John |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Money, Ernie | Sproat, Iain |
| Hunt, John | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Stainton, Keith |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Montgomery, Fergus | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Iremonger, T. L. | More, Jasper | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| James, David | Morrison, Charles | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Mudd, David | Stokes, John |
| Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Jessel, Toby | Neave, Airey | Sutcliffe, John |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Tapsell, Peter |
| Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Jopling, Michael | Normanton, Tom | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Keberry, Sir Donald | Nott, John | Tebbit, Norman |
| Keilett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Onslow, Cranley | Temple, John M. |
| Kilfedder, James | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Kimball, Marcus | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Osborn, John | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Kinsey, J. R. | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | |
| Kitson, Timothy | Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) | Tilney, John |
| Knight, Mrs. Jill | Parkinson, Cecil | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Knox, David | Peel, John | Trew, Peter |
| Lambton, Lord | Percival, Ian | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Lamont, Norman | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Pink, R. Bonner | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Waddington, David |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Longden, Sir Gilbert | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Loveridge, John | Raison, Timothy | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Luce, R. N. | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Wall, Patrick |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Ward, Dame Irene |
| MacArthur, Ian | Redmond, Robert | Warren, Kenneth |
| McCrindle, R. A. | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| McLaren, Martin | Rees, Peter (Dover) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Rees-Davies, W. R. | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| McMaster, Stanley | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Macmiltan,Rt.Hn.Maurice (Farnham) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Winterton, Nicholas |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael | Ridsdale, Julian | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Maddan, Martin | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Madel, David | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Maginnis, John E. | Rost, Peter | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Marten, Neil | Russell, Sir Ronald | Younger, Hn. George |
| Mather, Carol | Scott, Nicholas | |
| Maude, Angus | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Shelton, William (Clapham) | Mr. Hugh Rossi and |
| Mawby, Ray | Shersby, Michael | Mr. Oscar Murton. |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Simeons, Charles | |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Sinclair, Sir George | |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Edwards, William (Merioneth) |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Cohen, Stanley | Ellis, Tom |
| Ashley, Jack | Coleman, Donald | English, Michael |
| Atkinson, Norman | Concannon, J. D. | Evans, Fred |
| Barnes, Michael | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Fisher, Mrs. Dorls(B'ham, Ladywood) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Cox, Thomas (Wandsworlh, C.) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton) | Crawshaw, Richard | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) |
| Beaney, Alan | Cronin, John | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Foot, Michael |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Ford, Ben |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Forrester, John |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Dalyell, Tam | Fraser, John (Norwood) |
| Booth, Albert | Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Freeson, Reginald |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Galpern, Sir Myer |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Gilbert, Dr. John |
| Bradley, Tom | Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury) |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Deakins, Eric | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Delargy, Hugh | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Buchan, Norman | Dempsey, James | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Hardy, Peter |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Cant, R. B. | Driberg, Tom | Hattersley, Roy |
| Carmichael, Neil | Duffy, A. E. P. | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Dunn, James A. | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Eadie, Alex | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Edelman, Maurice | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Mendelson, John | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.) |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Mikardo, Ian | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Millan, Bruce | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Sillars, James |
| Hunter, Adam | Milne, Edward | Silverman, Julius |
| Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Janner, Greville | Molloy, William | Small, William |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) |
| Jeger, Mrs. Lena | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| John, Brynmor | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) | Murray, Ronald King | Stoddart, David (Swindon) |
| Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Oakes, Gordon | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Ogden, Eric | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | O'Halloran, Michael | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) | O'Malley, Brian | Swain, Thomas |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Oram, Bert | |
| Judd, Frank | Orbach, Maurice | Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.) |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Orme, Stanley | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Kelley, Richard | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) | Tomney, Frank |
| Kerr, Russell | Palmer, Arthur | Tope, Graham |
| Kinnock, Neil | Pardoe, John | Torney, Tom |
| Lambie, David | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Lamborn, Harry | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Latham, Arthur | Pavitt, Laurie | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Lawson, George | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) |
| Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Perry, Ernest G. | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. | Wallace, George |
| Lipton, Marcus | Probert, Arthur | Weitzman, David |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Rankin, John | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Whitlock, William |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Richard, Ivor | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| McBride, Neil | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Roderick, Caerwyn E. Brc'n&R'dnor) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Marquand, David | Roper, John | |
| Marshall, Dr. Edmund | Rose, Paul B. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Rowlands, Ted | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Meacher, Michael | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Mr. Tom Pendry. |
| Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.