HC Deb 08 February 1973 vol 850 cc631-4
13. Mr. Grimond

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now make the possession of firearms in Northern Ireland illegal, except for few and specified purposes.

Mr. Whitelaw

Illegally-held firearms are the main problem. Shotguns in rural areas and weapons for personal protection for members of the security forces and others in particular positions are necessary. Nevertheless, I am considering asking for new powers, for example, to require that hand guns licensed for personal protection should be brought in for ballistic and any other necessary tests.

Mr. Grimond

I thank the Secretary of State for that response, as far as it goes. Many people feel, particularly in view of the atrocities committed during the last few days, that the least we can do is to withdraw practically all firearms in Northern Ireland. No one supposes that that would cure the trouble, but in view of the appalling stories we have read in the last few days, it is difficult to say that it is essential to have shotguns in rural areas.

Mr. Whitelaw

There is no evidence that licensed weapons have been used in these acts of terrorism. I have had considerable experience of going round these areas and, in my judgment, I should not be acting responsibly if I suggested to the House that shotguns in rural areas and weapons for personal protection of members of the security forces and others in isolated areas should be withdrawn. I should regard that as an irresponsible and wrong action. At the same time, in current circumstances, if people are to hold licensed weapons it is reasonable—I am sure the vast majority of them, if not all, would agree—that it should be made clear beyond any doubt that these weapons are not in any way being used for terrorist activities. The proposals I have made should give assistance to that course.

Mr. Hugh Fraser

I am sure that the whole House will welcome what my right hon. Friend has said. It is clear that hand guns and rifles are essentially offensive and not defensive weapons. I do not know how good a shot is my right hon. Friend but from my military experience during the war, both as a terrorist and as an anti-terrorist——

Mr. Speaker

Order. Even the right hon. Gentleman must ask a question at Question Time.

Mr. Loughlin

I do not want to make a single remark that will make the right hon. Gentleman's task more difficult, but is he aware that an enormous number of guns held privately by people in Northern Ireland cannot be described as shotguns for rural areas? Will he look at the total number of licences that have been issued and consider whether he can withdraw as many as are not consistent with normal usage in a rural area?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have been looking into these matters very carefully, to the extent that I think it is right to give the House some figures. There are 73,345 shotguns, 11,826 air weapons—for which I think I am right in saying permits are not required in this country—13,305 rifles of a 0.22 calibre, 60 other rifles, and 7,345 hand guns, of which 4,978 are for members of the security forces. Looking at those figures and recognising that shotguns have not been called in anywhere—nor, indeed, has anyone suggested that they should be called in anywhere—one sees, in addition, a considerable number issued to individuals for the usual sentimental reasons. Having looked at all those figures, I do not accept that there is an enormous problem of legally held weapons. It is only fair to put the numbers in perspective. Having done that, I have said what I am prepared to consider. I am prepared to consider other measures as well, but I am not prepared to put people in rural areas at personal risk.

Captain Orr

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what he has just said in his concluding sentence will be warmly welcomed? We are perfectly happy that he should take powers to have ballistics tests done, because we are confident that they will establish that legally held arms have never been responsible for any act of violence in the past. However, there is grave anxiety that this sustained pressure from all kinds of sources for him to act against legally held arms is designed to ensure the maximum uncertainty and anxiety for people who fear for their lives.

Mr. Whitelaw

I understand that. I have mentioned the purposes for which I am considering some new powers. Many of the sources advocating this matter in various parts of the House would require me in any event to take new powers to meet them. I am prepared to consider the whole situation. However, I repeat quite firmly, because it is very important, that shotguns in rural areas used for the personal protection of people living in isolated areas and for members of the security forces are necessary in the current circumstances in Northern Ireland. I am confident that these weapons are not being used in the present terrorist campaign. If I find that they are being used, particularly in Belfast, which is a problem I am prepared to look at somewhat separately from the rest of the country—that is where the main problem lies—I am prepared to consider further action.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is the Secretary of State aware that we welcome his announcement today, but as a first step, because there are too many guns in Northern Ireland as we saw yesterday? Is he aware that we seek not to take guns from those who need them. I should be the last to suggest doing so. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I seek protection when I visit Northern Ireland. Therefore, I am aware that there are others who need protection on a much longer scale than I do. We on this side of the House are not concerned about that. We realise and accept the situation in that respect. However, will he check a matter that has been reported to me, that some leaders of the UDA carry weapons and licences in their pockets which they claim justify the carrying of those weapons?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making it perfectly clear that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends do not wish to see protection withdrawn from those who genuinely need it. That is widely accepted on both sides of the House.

As for the rest of what the hon. Gentleman said, I am certainly prepared to look into these and other matters where it may be necessary for me to take further new powers to deal with them because I do not have those powers at the moment.

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