HC Deb 06 February 1973 vol 850 cc394-401

11.47 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mills)

I beg to move, That the Births, Deaths and Marriages Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved. The order is concerned mainly with the establishment of a new registration system based on the 26 new district councils. These will appoint staff, provide accommodation and administer the service. In this they will be acting as agents for the Ministry of Finance, which will bear all the expenditure. At present there are 120 registrars' offices throughout Northern Ireland the majority of which are open for a few hours only each week. Some years ago county health committees were encouraged to centralise registration in designated districts with salaried staff, but only 20 offices are involved. The intention is to man register offices full-time. Registration facilities will also be available at maternity hospitals, where well over 90 per cent. of all births take place. Even should the birth not be registered there, it can be registered in the district in which the mother of the child lives, whereas previously it could be registered only in the district in which the birth occurred. Under the order the facility of alternative districts of registration will also apply to deaths.

The order also introduces a new procedure for the changing of forenames and surnames in birth registers. This concerns only the recording of the change and has no effect on the law on the subject. At present no change of surname may be recorded and the only change possible is where a forename is given or altered within two years from the date of birth of the child. The idea behind the provision is to avoid embarrassment to a person by enabling him to produce a birth certificate in the name by which he is generally known. The scheme has been operated in Scotland for the last five years, and it has not been abused. The Registrar-General will be able to authorise the registration of a birth or death where a qualified informant is not available. At the time of registration of a birth information other than that required for registration may be obtained, but this information, together with all information on still-births, is to be safeguarded and disclosed only in limited circumstances.

Certain officers who under the new system will lose office as superintendent registrar and who would be eligible for pension or other allowance in respect of registration duties would be compensated.

Some parts of the order will come into operation 14 days after the order is made. This will enable the Ministry to set up the basic machinery of the new service so that everything will be ready on 1st October 1973. I ask the House to support the motion.

11.50 p.m.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds, South)

This was a measure going through Stormont at the time of Prorogation. It did not have a Second Reading.

The Under-Secretary has explained that the order is concerned with a new registration service as a result of the reorganisation of local government and that the decision was made in accordance with the Macrory Report to finance it from central Government funds. This seems practicable and sensible. However, there are one or two points that I wish to put to the hon. Gentleman.

The Under-Secretary referred to article 7, which provides for the payment of compensation for the loss of jobs. The hon. Gentleman said that certain superintendent registrars would be affected. How many officers are likely to benefit, if that is the right word? What total sum of money is liable to be involved? While we do not wish to publicise an individual case, can the hon. Gentleman give a general outline of the sort of compensation which would be paid to a man of 40. who could normally expect to serve for another 20 or 25 years? Whereas in many cases when redundancy payments are made, especially in industry, it is possible to obtain similar employment, what other employment opportunities will there be for those affected? It is a specialised job, and it is important to know what the Government have in mind.

With whom have negotiations taken place to decide the sum? Redundancy payments have developed a great deal on this side of the water in the past 10 years. Did the Government decide on this in vacuo, or was it decided in negotiations with the equivalent of the local government officers' association or a civil service association?

Article 8 provides that all the expenditure will be from central funds. What is the figure anticipated for the first financial year in which this order takes effect and how does it compare per capita of the population in Northern Ireland with other parts of the United Kingdom? In this instance, I shall be happy to receive the information when the matter has been researched.

In the January issue of Ulster Commentary News Supplement there is a note to the effect that the death-rate in Ulster is the lowest in the British Isles. According to the Registrar-General's return for the June quarter of 1972 the figure is equivalent to an annual rate of 10.8 per thousand of the population. How is the information published after being collected by the registrars? I notice that this is the Registrar-General's return. Is this the method of publication of the information which will be collected under the provisions of the order?

Trying to delve into some of the figures relating to birth rate, death rate and marriage rate, I notice fertility rate. This is not unimportant in Northern Ireland in view of some of the problems there. For the birth rate the number of live births registered per thousand of the population is given, but the important figure is the fertility rate. Is this figure arrived at in the same way as the figure of birth rate? The fertility rate is that of total legitimate live births per thousand to married women aged under 45. From my researches I notice that the illegitimacy is growing in Northern Ireland, as it is in other parts of the United Kingdom. The definition for the fertility rate being based on the number of legitimate live births per thousand to married women under 45, this is a technical point which should be cleared up for those who are interested. As it does not refer to illegitimate births, there seems an under-estimate of the true situation.

In general, this draft order is welcomed by this side of the House.

11.57 p.m.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

This draft order is very important because it deals with the whole scope of living from birth to death with marriage between. There are many points which could be made in discussion of it. I wish to ask some questions.

The marriage code in Northern Ireland is very complex. It has often been said that the Scottish law on marriage is very intricate, but in Northern Ireland there are many ways in which people can be married either by licence or by certificate. Is the Minister to reduce from 120 to 26 the number of offices where a person can be married in what is known as a registered building by licence or certificate? How will the Minister be able to guarantee a proper kind of service when that number is reduced from 120 to 26?

The draft order says in article 10(4): For a period of three years from 1st October 1973 a person may be married in a registered building in which he could have been married if this Order had not been made; and accordingly for the purpose of this paragraph the residence of that person shall be deemed to be the registration district in which that building is situated. The Minister may not be aware that in an application for a licence or certificate one of the parties must live in the registered district in which the registered building is situated. If the person does not have an address in the area, he cannot be married there. I wonder whether the provision relating to three years is long enough to get over the teething troubles that are bound to arise when the number of offices dealing with the registration of marriages is cut from 120 to 26.

We are dealing here with the effects of the Macrory Report. This order is put forward in an effort to reorganise the registration offices dealing with births, deaths and marriages into the groupings of the district councils. I can see a lot of trouble resulting from the order. It is not possible to have 120 offices one day and only 26 the next without trouble being caused. This is an important point with which the Minister should deal in winding-up the debate. Being engaged in marrying people, I know the troubles that can arise. People will have to travel considerable distances to give notice of marriage because there will no longer be a register office in their district.

What will happen when the Central Registration Office is set up and all certificates are issued by the Registrar-General? How many of the people engaged in the work of the 120 offices will be assimilated into the work of that central office?

Part II of the order leaves much to be desired. When dealing with the certificate it says: such other particulars as may be prescribed. Can the Minister tell us what particulars are to be prescribed? Has the religion of the child to be clearly stated on the certificate? Is he aware that in Northern Ireland, in view of the working of the Ne Temere decree of the Roman Catholic Church, the future of many a child is decided in a court of law, when the certificate is involved? I am not bringing this in because of any sectarian prejudice. I know the heartbreak that can occur. I would like the Minister to expound on this. Many people will look at the order and think there is nothing in it. But there is a lot in it because it affects the lives of the people in the community.

Paragraph (5) in Part II of Schedule I says: Where the Registrar General is satisfied, after such inquiry as he thinks necessary". What are the guidelines for the Registrar-General in making inquiries "as he thinks necessary"? This order is far too loose. We find that the Registrar-General is able to make out a certificate without having a qualified person to give him details for the certificate. I do not think that the Registrar-General should be given such wide powers by this Parliament.

Another interesting requirement is that after a year no particulars shall be entered in the register. To whom are these figures to be made available? This is a very important point, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will clarify it. We should be told who will have access to these figures, because they will relate to personal details.

When a birth certificate is sought for an illegitimate child, will it be issued in such a way that the child does not suffer embarrassment when he goes to school or takes a job? The fault is not that of the child, and he should not be made to suffer all his life from embarrassment caused by a birth certificate. Up to the present time it has been the rule to leave a blank space for the father's name. Perhaps the Minister will say what he proposes to do to remedy the situation.

There are other matters arising on the order with which I shall not detain the House, but I hope that on the important matters which I have raised the Minister will let me have the information in his reply or in written form later.

12.6 a.m.

Mr. Peter Mills

I shall try to reply to many of the points which have been raised, but if I do not succeed in including them in my reply I promise to give full answers in due course.

The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) said the order was practical and sensible, and I agree with him. He asked a number of questions. He asked how many officers would become redundant and eligible for compensation. It is an important point. I understand that the number involved is about 30. I am unable to say what sums of money will be entailed, but the compensation in each case will depend directly on the fees earned. Most of the personnel are part-time, so the sum will not be large.

The hon. Gentleman also asked how the information was published. I understand the registrars transmit returns to the Northern Ireland Registrar-General. He collates the information, he will continue to do so and it will be published in the normal way. I was a little worried about his remarks about the fertility rate, and I would prefer to answer that point in a letter. I want to be sure I get the answer right.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) talked about the marriage code and raised many important points. I must tell him that the authorities in England, Wales and Scotland are considering radical changes in the law relating to the solemnisation of marriage. It is intended to see how these matters apply in practice before any changes are made in the complicated arrangements in Northern Ireland. I give him the firm assurance that we are carefully looking at the matter and watching what others are doing. The Minister concerned will undertake to consider any points which are raised on the subject when the procedure is revised. It is hoped that such marriage legislation would be considered within the three years envisaged in the order. We are looking into the situation, but it is complicated.

I am a little confused about the number of officers. I understand the 120 officers are registrars of births, deaths and Roman Catholic marriages. They have nothing to do with the issue of marriage licences. I am not clear about the situation, and I will look into it and see that the hon. Gentleman gets the correct answer.

The hon. Member asked what further information would be required. This is likely to be the dates of birth of father and mother, date of marriage and the number of children previously born. It is intended that these particulars should be used for the preparation of statistics by the Registrar-General and, in certain circumstances, the Ministry of Health and Social Security.

I can promise that the fears the hon. Member raised will be taken into account when it is decided to disclose information to the Ministry of Health and Social Security. Obviously, it is a delicate matter, and all the points he raised are delicate. That is important that the number of people to whom this information is given is kept to a minimum, and I can promise him that it will be.

Again I commend the order to the House—

Rev. Ian Paisley

Can the hon. Member answer my point about the birth certificate issued where the child is illegitimate?

Mr. Mills

I was going to write to the hon. Member but, mysteriously, a note has appeared before me and I can tell him that it will be the ordinary certificate, except where the mother does not want the name of the father shown, when it cannot be divulged. This is such a delicate point and is so important that I should write to the hon. Member so that we can make it quite clear. We do not want any embarrassment in that situation.

I thought this was a simple order, but the more one looks into it the more one sees that the more points hon. Members rightly raise the more complicated it becomes. It is still practical and sensible, in the words of the hon. Member, and I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Births, Deaths and Marriages Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.