NORTHERN IRELAND

HC Deb 01 February 1973 vol 849 cc1625-38

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement.

Following the spate of sectarian killings towards the end of last year, the joint Task Force of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Royal Military Police was set up in December to investigate and prevent sectarian murders. In the first three weeks of January there was a marked decline in the number of murders and of murder attempts. Two people were murdered in this period, one Catholic and one Protestant. Bad as this was, it was a marked improvement, and much of the credit should be given to the Task Force, which was responsible for the arrest of three men who have been charged with three murders committed last year.

However, there has now been a fresh and appalling wave of murders. During the last four days five people have been murdered, one of them a mere boy, and there have also been cases of attempted murder; and now this morning at about eight o'clock a grenade was thrown in Kingsway Park on the east side of Belfast at a bus which was carrying men to their work in Dundonald. One man was killed and nine others injured, of whom three a still in hospital.

On behalf of Her Majesty's Government I would like to express deep regret and extend our sympathy to the families of those killed and injured in these recent bestial incidents.

Every effort is being made by the security forces to apprehend those responsible for these crimes. Since 1st January 16 people have been charged with 10 murders. A massive security operation has been carried out today by the security forces in the area in which the bus was attacked, and is still going on.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is the Secretary of State aware that we on this side of the House have firmly supported the security forces in their fight against the IRA bombings and murders, but that equally we want to see action taken against all other forces who use the bomb and the bullet? What sort of people are these who kill young people and throw grenades at men on their way to work? Our concern, like that of the right hon. Gentleman, is for Protestants and Catholics whose families have been murdered.

On the wider aspect, is the Secretary of State aware that we all note that sectarian murders have increased since an officer of the UDA announced that it could not longer hold back a fierce Protestant reaction? Is no action to be taken against an organisation which breaks the Northern Ireland Public Order Act, some of whose leaders have publicly admitted responsibility for bombings? Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the UVF has admitted responsibility for today's killings at eight o'clock this morning?

I return to the point about weapons made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for nearly two years now. Has the right hon. Gentleman noted that a UDA leader wrote in the Sunday Times last weekend that his organisation always relies on legally held weapons in its operations? Will he now call in all weapons and re-issue a new type of licence to those who genuinely need protection? We fully appreciate that there are people in the rural areas who need for themselves at night the protection that the security forces cannot give them, but will he please now take action on this in view of the revelations made in the article to which I have referred?

Finally, is not uncertainty a contributory factor, though no more than that, I accept, to violence, and for this reason alone will the right hon Gentleman announce very shortly to the world via the White Paper his conclusions about the future government of Northern Ireland?

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman has made a number of points very fairly, as he always does. First, as far as the work of the security forces is concerned I would like to make it abundantly clear that the security forces will act, have always acted, as I have claimed, and will continue to act completely impartially against people who commit crimes from whatever part of the community they may come. That will certainly go on.

As far as sectarian murders are concerned, it is very important to me, as I think the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, never to fall into the legal trap of saying what are my views about particular actions before these have been fully investigated by the police. Some people have fallen into this trap before, and I must be careful not to do so myself. But I recognise, of course, that some of these murders are sectarian in character, though some may well not be. But I fully appreciate that certainly some of them are.

With regard to wild talk from one quarter or another, no one who has done my job for nine months could deplore that more than I do. I find myself living in a position where wild talk from all quarters and all directions all the time seems to be the habit of the day, and the only person who is not entitled in any way at any time to indulge in any wild talk is myself. Though everybody else does, I do not. That is the situation one has to face.

The trouble is that I have to take very carefully into consideration all these actions and all these words of various people. I will consider most carefully what people say, but they should all know how important their words are, from whatever part of the community they come, and consider what influence their words may have not on people who are used to political talk but on many people who are not and who act in very different ways. I want to say this afternoon to all sides of the community in Northern Ireland: is it not posible to have less wild talk of all kinds which incites people and which is very dangerous? I will certainly look very carefully at the words that are used.

Coming next to the question of weapons, I recognise that this is something which is very difficult for people outside Northern Ireland fully to appreciate. I have studied this matter most carefully, and I believe I can say, totally impartially. First of all, I would like to take the position of shotguns. Of 105,000 or thereabouts legally held weapons, over 70,000 are shotguns. I do not think this is an unreasonable number of shotguns in an agricultural community, as no one on either side has suggested that shotguns as such are responsible for these crimes or that they should be recalled.

As to other weapons, there are those in all sections of the community—and I emphasise all sections—who are provided with weapons for their personal protection. I would like to say to every hon. Member in this House that for my part I would not like to be in the position of some of these people if, in fact, weapons for their personal protection were withdrawn from them. This is something the House should understand. It is easy for me, of all people, to say so in all the circumstances in which I am placed, as the House will understand. Nevertheless, having said that, I will accept the hon. Gentleman's view and will look at this, provided it is accepted that shotguns in an agricultural community and in all the circumstances are not the problem. I will certainly consider very carefully what has been said on other legally held weapons.

As to uncertainty and the White Paper, I have consistently said that I do not know, and cannot know, the date when this will be published. I recognise that uncertainty has a part to play, but I would not accept that it is a major part. I would say to the House—and I believe hon. Members will agree—that on the question of deciding for the future, the question of the White Paper, something which is to affect Northern Ireland and its people very deeply, it is very much more important to be right than to be rushed.

Captain Orr

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we join with him and the hon. Gentleman opposite in expressing our deepest sympathy to the relatives of all who have lost their lives as a result of these ghastly murders? There are probably no words in the English language strong enough to condemn the kind of incidents that have just occurred, from whatever source they may have come. Probably the worst thing in the situation at the present moment is the degree of speculation and the rumour that is rife about the origins, causes or motives of these events. While one appreciates the legal trap which my right hon. Friend rightly envisages, it is still very important to give the public as soon as it reasonably possible the fullest possible information whenever that is available.

With regard to the actual endeavours to find the criminals, from wherever they come, and bring them to justice, would my right hon. Friend say whether he is still satisfied with the degree of co-operation between the Army, the Task Force and the Royal Ulster Constabulary and whether there might not be a rôle in intelligence work to be played by the RUC Reserve? Finally, on the question of arms, has he any evidence that any legally held arms have ever been involved in any of these incidents?

Mr. Whitelaw

My hon. Friend has raised various points. First, on the question of speculation and rumour about the various murders, of course, as I said before, everyone is entitled to speculate and indulge in rumour; the only person who is not is me. That is perfectly fair and proper. However, I wish people would not speculate but would give the security forces and the police an opportunity to try to establish the real facts, which is what one wants to know. Perhaps that is really asking too much.

On the question of bringing these people to justice, apart from the figures I have given of those who have been charged, it is important to know the facts, because there is a feeling that the forces of law and order are not reacting as strongly as they should do; so it is important to know what has actually happened. Since 1st January, in cases involving the more serious terrorist offences, 60 persons have been sentenced to a total of 292 years' imprisonment plus one life sentence. Let no one say that those are not severe deterrents for those who have been guilty of various crimes and found guilty of them in the courts. Lest anyone has any doubts, let those serving those sentences have no doubt that as far as I am concerned in the circumstances in which I am placed, if they are found guilty and given those sentences that is the right place for them to be for that period of time. It is very important for everyone to realise that.

My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned the work of detection by the Task Force. I went out with the Task Force the other night. I do not pretend that I played an important part in the rôle of detection—that would not be likely. But I saw its work and I greatly admired it. It is very important that in this police operation the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Royal Military Police should co-operate together, and I believe that such co-operation has had and will have substantial success, particularly as a deterrent, which again in itself is very important. I am prepared to consider anything which would improve intelligence work. Obviously, I have a particular responsibility for intelligence and I must simply note what my hon. and gallant Friend said.

Mr. Peter Archer

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is impossible any longer to justify confining the application of the Detention of Terrorists Order to only one side? Will he ensure that so long as it continues in use it will be applied impartially?

Mr. Whitelaw

I will certainly do that. I have always said that it would be applied impartially. The signing of interim custody orders put before the Commissioners is done on the judgment of Ministers. We do it ourselves. No one else takes the decisions. We take all such decisions totally impartially. We make what we believe is the right judgment in the circumstances. We shall continue to do so. What the Commissioners decide is, under the Detention of Terrorists Order, their decision, and I believe that it is right that that process should continue.

I was asked by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South about evidence that legally held weapons had been responsible for any of the crimes committed. I have no such evidence.

Mr. Hugh Fraser

I am sure that the whole House retains full confidence in my right hon. Friend in his difficult task. I am glad that he is to look again at the question of weapons. It is vitally important, as we move towards what may well be a climacteric in the Northern Ireland situation, that the Government make it clear—particularly in relation to Section 7 of the Public Order Acts, dealing with the prohibition of quasi-military organisations—that they are carrying out the law and that law and order, having been taken over by this House, will be fully maintained in Northern Ireland. I think that if there is any sign of weakness while we move into a very dangerous situation, it will be disastrous. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will look at these points very seriously. The law must apply equally to both communities.

Mr. Whitelaw

I accept the importance of applying the law equally to both communities. But I think one must simply say, in looking at this matter, that while all sorts of crimes may be committed by one lot of people or another, no one should have any doubt as to what has been going on over the last four years. One has to look at the situation in that context.

My right hon. Friend returned to the subject of legally held weapons. I think that it is important for the House to keep this in proper perspective. While I will certainly look at the margin between the number of shotguns and the total number of weapons held—over 100,000, including over 70,000 shotguns, and including guns for personal protection—let no one have any doubt that the real trouble in Northern Ireland is the illegally held weapons which are coming in.

In the Sunday Times article to which the hon. Member for Leeds, South referred, one person said he relied on legally held weapons while another boasted of how many illegal weapons were being brought in. That was in one and the same article. It is extremely difficult to know what on earth is going on in such circumstances. I will look again at the question of legally held weapons, but even when I have done so the problem still remains of illegally held weapons, which make up far the greater proportion of weapons.

Mr. Speaker

May we revert to question and answer, please?

Mr. Fitt

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the circumstances in which the latest increase of sectarian murders has taken place seems to indicate that a calculated campaign is being waged with the intention of intimidating and terrorising the Catholic minority in Belfast particularly, with the added intention of trying to influence the Government in relation to the decisions they may take in the White Paper? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to disregard the disclosures and revelations made by a person who has defected from the UDA? Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept it as a fact that the UDA has been importing arms, has blown up a public house in Belfast and has also been using legally held weapons? Has he given instructions for these people to be questioned about the serious charges? Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to keep telling the House that legally held weapons are of no moment in this matter when there is no way of finding out whether a legal weapon has been used in an assassination attempt or murder in Northern Ireland? There is no way of proving it. Does he agree that right-thinking people in both the majority and the minority would not be averse to having all legally held weapons called in forthwith?

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman is inviting me to follow him in speculation about the motives for various murders. He will appreciate how wrong it could be for me to comment one way or another. He is entitled to his view but it would be wrong for me to comment.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the disclosures about the UDA by one person. In a short period in Northern Ireland, I have found it most fascinating to read disclosures, particularly where they affect me personally, of what various people are said to have done or of what has been said to me personally. Frequently these reports contain considerable inaccuracies. But I have the benefit, which perhaps these other persons have not had, of having a record taken of what happens at these meetings. As I say, frequently the disclosures are inaccurate. If they are inaccurate on that scale, they may be inaccurate in many other respects—and frequently are. They also frequently conflict.

But having said that, I would add that of course what is said is most carefully gone into. What was said in that article is being gone into now. I confirm that police inquiries are going on into various statements which have been made. This is a matter for the police and not for me, but I am entitled to tell the House of the inquiries.

The hon. Gentleman returned to the subject of legally held weapons. I have never said that this is the worst part of the problem. What I have said is that shotguns are widely accepted and that there are also weapons, far fewer in number, for personal protection which are equally widely accepted. I have said that there is only a small problem there compared with the enormous problem of illegally held weapons, and I am glad to say that the security forces have been successful in capturing many of these weapons. Nevertheless, there are still a great many left.

Mr. Kilfedder

Does my right hon. Friend know that as recently as a debate last night I utterly condemned those guilty of murder, whether they be Protestant or Catholic or ordinary criminals?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is the widest belief throughout Northern Ireland that prisoners found guilty of atrocities will be released in a general amnesty as part of or shortly after a political settlement? I therefore welcome his statement that these thugs will serve every day of their sentences and I trust that this will act as a deterrent. Will he intensify the search for those responsible for these fiendish and atrocious crimes?

Mr. Whitelaw

I accept what my hon. Friend has said in condemning violence and I am grateful to him. I am grateful to all those on both sides of the House who have consistently condemned violence from whichever quarter it has come. It is important that there should be such condemnation.

There are those who say that we must have more protection against these thugs. Very well. The security forces will do all they can, as always, and I am prepared to consider any further measures of protection which are put to me constructively. But when people say in general terms that they want more protection, I must ask them to state exactly what are the measures they wish to see.

My hon. Friend referred to some people believing that sentences will not be served. I have made abundantly clear my view and that of the Government and I hope that it will be properly noted, because these rumours go around. This rumour is not true. It has no substance whatever.

Mr. McNamara

The right hon. Gentleman said that he wants to know some of the methods which people concerned in Northern Ireland wish to see adopted. One of the methods which they wish to see adopted is the taking in of all legally held arms. Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that in the Northern Ireland situation with its rumour, with its myth, with its fears, a demonstration by the right hon. Gentleman that he understood the fears of ordinary people and was prepared to order all legally held arms to be brought in, be they shotguns—and Belfast is not an agricultural community—or any other arms, and then issue some sort of licensing for arms held for personal protection, or for shooting foxes—although he probably does not like that—and in other circumstances when they are necessary, could be understood and appreciated as a gesture which could build up confidence. The pulling in of legally held arms would be a tremendous boost for many people.

Mr. Whitelaw

Perhaps on a lighter note—in serious affairs it is sometimes as well to have a lighter note—I do not know why the hon. Gentleman should think that I mind the shooting of foxes. That is by the way. As I said to the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), I shall of course consider the question of legally held arms, bearing in mind, first, that I believe that the situation about shotguns is reasonable. I shall consider all these proposals. I am very ready to do that. But I beg the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), when he speaks about people's fears in these circumstances, to put himself in the position of some in all parts of the community who have weapons for their personal protection and to ask himself whether, if he were living in that community, he would be happy to see these arms taken away.

Mr. McNamara

I said so.

Mr. Whitelaw

I think the hon. Member accepts that, but I must say this: it is a very important factor for me to take into account. In anything I do I have to take into account, first, shotguns—I do not believe it would be reasonable to disturb the position over shotguns—and also the very proper fears and anxiety of people who have weapons, justifiably in my opinion.

Several Hon. Members rose——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must protect the business of the House. I will allow two more questions on this subject.

Rev. Ian Paisley

With reference to the Task Force, can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what co-operation he is having with it in Protestant areas and what co-operation there is with it in Roman Catholic areas? I live in East Belfast, as he knows. The Task Force has been very effective there and arrests have been made. Could he tell the House whether this force is having co-operation in districts where there have been murders and a hue and cry to find the murderers? It is hardly fair, in my opinion, that the security forces should be condemned if they do not have the fullest possible co-operation from the people in the localities where these dastardly crimes are committed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that if he outlawed all weapons, only the outlaws would have weapons? If he announced the calling in of all licensed weapons there would be a frightening situation. Is he aware that there are people in lonely parts of the country who never see a member of the British Army, or a policeman, or a reserve policeman, or a UDR man, and that their only protection is the weapons which they legally hold? Will he also tell the House that he can ascertain whether a crime has been committed with a legally held weapon or an illegally held weapon when the murderer is apprehended—for then it can be found whether the weapon was licensed?

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Member has made three points. On the first, I am grateful for his tribute to what the Task Force has done in East Belfast. I am grateful to him and others for their co-operation in the work that the force is doing. I wish there were the same co-operation throughout the city of Belfast, in all areas, with the work of the force, but I regret to say that that is not the case. Those who want to see these troubles and murders ended have one course open to them which I hope will be considered very carefully: the more effectively they co-operate with the Task Force in giving information, the more likely it is to be successful in bringing these crimes to an end.

Secondly, just because I understand very well the anxieties put forward by the hon. Member about people who hold arms legally, I have systematically, firmly and determinedly adopted the attitude I have explained. I remain quite ready to consider matters at the margin of this problem, but I am absolutely adamant in saying that I am not going to create fear and distress among a lot of isolated people. That I shall not do. The House will realise that it would be very wrong if I did so.

On the third point, once one has been able to establish which weapon was used in a murder, or one has been able through forensic means to bring someone to court on a charge, it is possible to ascertain whether a murder was committed by a legal or an illegal weapon. When I gave the answer to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) that there was no evidence as yet that a legally held arm had been used for a murder, that answer was based on such information.

Mr. Douglas

Would the Secretary of State concede that one of the most astounding aspects of sectarian killings is the age of those alleged to be perpetrating killings and the age of those who are killed? Will he have discussions with the education authorities and those in the schools to obtain the co-operation of those authorities to inculcate, if possible, in the young the idea that by acting in this way they are only laying up future trouble for themselves and for those who lend assistance to those perpetrating killing? Secondly, will he consult the Press in Northern Ireland and emphasise the feeling in all parts of the House that we are concerned here not with the religion of those who are killed but with the fact that they are citizens of the United Kingdom and that the reporting of the religion of a victim should be very much a secondary aspect?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for both points he has made. On the first point about the youth of those engaged, not only in some of the killings but recently, as he will also have noticed, in some of the bomb incidents and many other activities, it is a very serious matter that the young are certainly being used for these purposes. What perhaps the House does not realise and what perhaps the world does not realise—and so few people co-operate in this—are the tremendous efforts which are being made in the schools by teachers in all parts of the community to bring young people together, to promote games and recreation. A great deal of work is being done in that way. I pay tribute to those people. It is very unfair that because violence inevitably is news the efforts of those people do not gain the prominence which they should gain in Press reports. A great deal of this work is going on and everything which we in the Northern Ireland Office can do to promote it will be done. It is very important.

As to the question of the religion held by people who suffer, the House would be absolutely right in accepting what the hon. Member says. What matters in the end is that United Kingdom citizens are being killed in this way. Our job in this House, and the job of everyone, is to prevent that from whatever part of the community those people come.

Mr. McMaster

On a point or order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance. As you are aware, the incident on which this matter was raised was that of a bomb placed at the door of a bus in my constituency, which caused death and injury to many of my constituents. I wonder whether, when an incident such as this arises, the hon. Member concerned——

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member should make a communication on a matter of this kind privately. I did receive information from another hon. Member that the incident was in his constituency, but these matters should be discussed privately.