HC Deb 01 February 1973 vol 849 cc1583-5
2. Miss Fookes

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proportion of the 4,849,119 experiments on animals performed without the use of anaesthetics in 1971 were painless.

Mr. Lane

I regret that this information is not available; but authority to dispense with anaesthesia is never granted where an operation more severe than simple inoculation or the taking of a blood sample is proposed.

Miss Fookes

Will my hon. Friend take steps to see that the information is forthcoming in some form? This is a matter of the greatest concern to a large number of people, and the hon. Member's answer is not good enough.

Mr. Lane

With respect, it is not easy to get precisely the information required but I acknowledge that there is a great deal of concern. I consider that the safeguards in the Act are adequate. We are always looking for ways to improve them, but we must remember the definite benefits which result from what I prefer to call tests rather than experiments. If my hon. Friend and others would like to discuss the position with us, my noble Friend the Minister of State and I would be very happy to meet them.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell

How on earth can the Minister or the hon. Member for Merton and Mordern (Miss Fookes) know whether the experiments performed are painless? Surely only the animals can know that, and they are dumb.

Dr. Stuttaford

Would my hon. Friend not agree that there is an element of hypocrisy here, in that we express Concern about the children who suffer from the effects of thalidomide but now we are complaining of too many tests being carried out on animals?

Mr. Lane

I am glad that my hon. Friend has made that point. We must keep a sense of proportion in this matter and be just as concerned, if not more concerned, for humans as for animals.

Mr. Elystan Morgan

In the opinion of many distinguished medical experts a high percentage of tests now carried out by vivisection could be carried out on cultured tissues. It is accepted that there is a residuum which can be carried out only by vivisection. Does the Home Office know—and if it does not know, will it carry out a survey to discover—what percentage is representative in each case?

Mr. Lane

The possibilities of getting the sort of information now obtained through tests on animals by other means—that is, through other forms of research—is a matter for the Secretary of State for Education and Science, with whom we keep in close touch.