HC Deb 10 December 1973 vol 866 cc151-72

9.25 p.m.

Mr. John Smith (Lanarkshire, North)

I applied for this debate because of the critical staffing shortage which exists in Lanarkshire schools, particularly secondary schools. The education authority calculates that there are 366 vacancies in the county's secondary schools and in a recent report by the Scottish Education Department—I think it was the Staffing Census Survey—the Department calculated that there was a

which have been raised in the course of the debate. I hope that will meet the wishes of hon. Members.

Question put, That this House approves the Sixth Report from the House of Commons (Services) Committee in the last Session of Parliament on the Landscaping of New Palace Yard (HC Paper No. 424).

The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 42.

Division No. 20.] AYES [9.20 p.m.
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Awdry, Daniel Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Benyon, W. Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia Shelton, William (Clapham)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Stanbrook, Ivor
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Kilfedder, James Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Kinsey, J. R. Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Crouch, David Langford-Holt, Sir John Waddington, David
English, Michael Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Ward, Dame Irene
Eyre, Reginald McNair-Wilson, Michael Weatherill, Bernard
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Monro, Hector
Gower, Raymond Perry, Ernest G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gray, Hamish Redmond, Robert Mr. Robert Cooke and
Grylls, Michael Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Mr. Ray Mawby.
NOES
Austick, David Golding, John Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Beith, A. J. Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Pardoe, John
Biffen, John Hooson, Emlyn Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Braine, Sir Bernard Hughes, Mark (Durham) Roper, John
Carmichael, Neil Hunter, Adam Skinner, Dennis
Chapman, Sydney Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) McBride, Neil Thomas. Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)
Cohen, Stanley Mackie, John Torney, Tom
Concannon, J. D. McNamara, J. Kevin Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Dalyell, Tarn Marshall, Dr. Edmund Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Doig, Peter Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Whitehead, Phillip
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Duffy, A. E. P. Mudd, David TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Oswald, Thomas Mr. Patrick Cormack and
Fookes, Miss Janet Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Mr. Roger Moate.
Fox, Marcus

deficiency of about 632 teachers in the new staffing ratio.

Obviously, this is a very serious situation. My colleagues from Lanarkshire constituencies and I have received repeated and increasing complaints from concerned parents, teachers and councillors. I am concerned, with my colleagues, principally about the situation in Lanarkshire, but what I have to say has application to the West of Scotland as a whole because there is a genera] shortage of secondary teachers in the whole area of the West of Scotland. Again, the survey brings that out clearly, and allows that there is a serious problem in the city of Glasgow and the county of Renfrew as well as in the county of Lanarkshire.

In my constituency there is an acute shortage in Calderhead High School, in Shotts, and a serious problem in Chryston High School. The problem also exists in many other parts of the county.

When considering this matter we should pay tribute to the devoted work of many of the teachers who are keeping schools going in very difficult conditions. Without their dedication and the extra effort which they unstintingly make, the problem would be indescribably worse. The community owes a great debt to them. They are working with a shortage of colleagues, and sometimes in difficult conditions. I often wonder whether the community realises just how difficult life is for them, and that when they do make; complaints they are often speaking in a non-exaggerated sense about their problems. The whole of Scotland is fortunate in the services it receives from the teaching profession.

I do not believe that teachers receive adequate financial rewards for their work. I want to make particular points, in a constructive effort to find a solution to the present problem. I do not believe that we shall get a general solution to the problem unless teaching becomes a much more attractive profession from the financial point of view. We have to bear in mind the salaries paid to other people who serve local authorities, and on any comparison with some of the other professions working in the local authority service, teachers come out fairly badly.

I do not think it is enough to say that the staffing position for the whole of Scotland is not too bad. I do not think that we shall solve the problem of mal-distribution until we have more teachers in total, as well as having better distribution. I hope that the community finds a way as soon as possible of adequately rewarding teachers and giving them a good career structure, because teaching is a well deserving profession.

1 understand that today the Under-Secretary of State had a meeting with the Lanarkshire education authority on the question of both staffing and the school building programme. I know that the local authority was looking forward to the meeting, in the hope that between the Government and the local authority some solution to the problems of the teacher shortage and school building would be found. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to give us a full report on the conclusions reached at the meeting. A lot was expected of it, and I hope that a lot has come from it.

In dealing with the problem of Lanarkshire—and as I have said, this may have some implication for other areas as well—I want to put forward certain suggestions for consideration by the Government. I hope that they will be taken as a constructive attempt to try to get to the root of the problem.

First, is it not time that the payment for teaching in a designated school should be raised from the present level of £200 a year to about £400 a year? The hon. Gentleman has kindly provided me with the latest information on designated posts in Lanarkshire. I understand that there are 1,427 secondary posts of a designated character and that the annual cost of providing these extra payments is £285,400. To double the payment, therefore, would cost roughly another £250.

I believe that the scheme of designated payments, although it has some drawbacks and might not be a good long-term solution to the problem, has in the past helped to solve the problem to some extent, but I doubt whether the present payment is high enough, and I do not think that £250,000 is very much in the context of the total education bill for the county. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow those local education authorities which wish to increase the payment to attract teachers both to the county generally and to certain areas within it to do so. As I understand it, local authorities cannot do so at the moment. I hope that the Government will consider releasing the restrictions upon them so that they may, by their own expenditure, offer more incentives to teachers coming to their areas.

Secondly, I hope that the Minister will consider making more provision for secondary school teacher training in the West of Scotland and the county of Lanark. At present, Lanarkshire has only one teacher training college, which is at Hamilton. It trains only primary teachers. Most teachers go to Jordan-hill or to Notre Dame Training College for secondary training. If facilities were extended in the West of Scotland it might be possible to attract more secondary teachers. There appears to be some correlation between the existence of teacher training colleges and the attraction of teachers to an area. There is some hope that teachers might be attracted to schools where they are trained, particularly if they see the better side of the school from the teaching point of view. That is something which I know the county of Lanark is keen to pursue. I hope that the Government will follow up that constructive suggestion and will consider whether anything can be done in that regard. I hope that it will be possible for the Minister to consider introducing secondary teacher training facilities at Hamilton at a limited level during the next session. I do not know whether that is a practical possibility. I hope that he will consider that as a short-term measure to try to attract teachers to Lanarkshire.

I hope that on a long-term basis he will be willing to consider setting up an additional training college in the West of Scotland. We should not be complacent in thinking that we will produce a surplus of secondary teachers. As I have said before, we shall never solve the problem of distribution until we have a greater number of teachers.

I hope that the Minister will consider the possibility of an undermanning allowance for teachers who teach in areas where there is an acute shortage. I put that forward as an alternative or an addition to the designated scheme. The idea is to give some recompense to overworked and overstrained staffs in some schools. If their work was recognised in that way it might improve the general morale of the teaching profession, and particularly of those working in difficult conditions.

I hope that the Minister will consider setting up a special unit in his Department to liaise with the local authorities in obtaining a better geographical distribution of secondary teachers within Scotland. Edinburgh, Fife and Aberdeen, for example, are in a surplus situation, while Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire face a serious deficit situation. I hope that such a unit will be able to put more pressure on the well-staffed authorities not to recruit new teachers at the expense of other areas. I hope that such a unit will encourage schemes to attract teachers, such as the provision of housing, where possible.

I know that a voluntary limitation is supposed to be imposed, but that needs to be strengthened as far as possible. I hope that the Minister will have something constructive to say about that. Some authorities, including Lanarkshire, have been constructive in being willing to provide housing for teachers. That is not possible for all authorities. I understand the difficulties facing Glasgow Corporation. That is a matter which might be developed.

Special recruitment schemes for mature students will, I hope, be reintroduced. There was a general theory at one time that while we had an acute shortage of teachers there was no need to continue the scheme. There is good reason for having such a scheme, as it provides another ladder of educational opportunity. If we get only a few extra teachers in that way, valuable teachers might be produced for some of the areas which are in need of extra staff. I hope that the Government will give further consideration to reintroducing such a scheme.

My concern has been to try to find some constructive solution to the problem as soon as possible, so that the new Strathclyde authority, which will include all the areas of serious shortage, will not begin life with an impossible burden. Everyone in the West of Scotland is anxious that the problem should be tackled as soon as possible, so that there is a real chance of obtaining educational opportunity in future.

Fortunately, the staffing situation is not as bad in primary schools. I understand from an answer which the Minister recently gave me that Lanarkshire is about 37 teachers short. None the less, there are still difficulties in this sector. For example, Gartcosh primary school, which has about 100 pupils and which is in my constituency, has, I understand, only one teacher—the headmaster—available at present. I hope that this problem, which has arisen particularly because of staff illness, will soon be resolved, but it serves to remind us in a dramatic way that it is too early to be complacent about primary teacher supply. Problems still arise in this sector of education.

When criticism is made of the shortage of teachers, the Scottish Education Department sometimes takes refuge in the staffing figures for Scotland as a whole But it is clear that there is a particular problem for certain areas which persists in the general pattern, and it requires; special attention. Basically, it will be solved only by treating those areas as educational priority areas and giving the local authorities new resources to tackle the problem. This means increasing their building allocation, giving them all sorts of new methods to attract teachers and a clear Government commitment that, so far as they can allocate expenditure, priority will be given to these educational areas. It is a denial of educational opportunity if we denude certain areas of the most important resource in education—the teachers who teach in the schools.

I am glad to know that Lanarkshire is about to start an ambitious new recruiting scheme, to which I am sure everyone will wish success. My concern is that the Government will back them to the hilt and will be receptive to new ideas and new measures, because they are urgently needed if the present very difficult situation is to be overcome. I hope that the Government will give some indication that their mind is open to any practical and constructive suggestion which will help to solve the very serious problem which affects my constituents and those of many of my hon. Friends.

9.43 p.m.

Mr. Richard Buchanan (Glasgow, Springburn)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. John Smith) for raising this important subject and I support his appeal to the Secretary of State to do the utmost in his power to increase the number of teachers coming into the profession. The constituency of my hon. Friend and my constituency are neighbouring ones. The problems in North Lanarkshire are similar to those in my constituency.

I wrote to the Director of Education for Glasgow about a particular school in my constituency and the reply which I received today states that It is undoubtedly true that Albert Secondary School is suffering from a shortage of teachers. … Because of the increase in secondary rolls resulting directly from the raising of the school leaving age … Glasgow alone required over 400 secondary teachers…. A calamitous shortage of 400 teachers, if it were evenly spread, could be borne. But the burden is not evenly spread. Some schools have a shortage of 26 teachers, but many schools have a shortage of 15 to 25 teachers.

There are areas of acute educational deprivation. Springburn is one of them. The redevelopment of Springburn has occasioned the knocking down of buildings and the shifting of people. Teachers, like everyone else, do not like working in a builder's yard. However, the pupil-teacher ratio which the Minister has given takes no account of the non-teaching posts in secondary schools or of teachers who are teaching minority subjects in the upper part of the secondary school and who may have very small classes. In 1964, the ratio was 16.4 to 1.

But even more important is the shortages in subjects. With the school I have in mind, parents are complaining that their children are getting between seven and 10 periods of French a week because in Glasgow they are short of technical, maths and science teachers. Regardless of whether a teacher may be qualified to teach a particular subject if he or she is in a school the headmaster has no alternative but to make use of him. We cannot blame the headmaster in that situation. But our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. Any hope we might have for our nation to participate in world leadership, and any hope for real economic growth and the demands of citizenship in an era such as we now live in require the maximum development of every young man and woman.

The human mind is a fundamental resource. My criticism of the Government is that they have constantly minimised the problem facing us. It is only six months since I asked the Minister a Question on the teaching shortage, and accused him of complacency. All our accusations are bearing fruit. I added that on no previous occasion had the general indiscipline of society been such as to demand that we should not endanger the standard of education and conduct which teachers were trying to foster, by placing on them a burden which was completely intolerable. As my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North said, that burden is becoming completely intolerable. The teachers' organisations are not among the most militant of organisations, but already they are talking about strikes. They are being organised for militant action—and who can blame the teachers? Many of them work in "blackboard jungles".

The raising of the school leaving age was an excellent idea, but the time was not right until we had adequate accommodation and enough teachers to carry out the job. What can we do? My hon. Friend proposed many ideas, which I shall not repeat, but one thing should be seriously considered, particularly in Glasgow and Lanarkshire, namely—as the teachers' organisations requested—that pupils should be allowed to leave school as soon as they reach their 16th birthday. These are the frustrated pupils who are causing trouble in the schools. They display a burning resentment and a desire for revenge on authority. Certain schools find it almost impossible to keep them in check. We hear of pupils being expelled and police brought in to certain schools—not in Springburn, I hasten to add—because of resentment that exists among some of these pupils.

I have written to the Minister about this problem. When I was a manager of a list D school it was possible to license a boy who had been sent to such a school if he behaved himself and could find a job. He came back to the school at night. I realise this is an impossible arrangement for a day school. But it should be possible, as an incentive to good behaviour, for pupils to be licensed at 16 or younger if they can find employment and can be taken into a junior college for further education or evening classes. But for the teachers there is only one solution—pay them decent salaries and provide good conditions of service. I called for that in my first speech in 1964. They are one of the most exploited professions in the kingdom.

There should be a parliamentary inquiry into the teaching profession. We need to take a close look at non-teaching jobs. I am all in favour of promotion—of having a lot of chiefs and few Indians. The promotional structure for teachers was abysmal. The creation of these posts has given the teachers incentives and a career structure. We are now appointing advisers in education. The benefit of an adviser is that he sees the whole picture. But when we hear about education authorities appointing assistant advisers it is time that we took notice. It has to be a very important post to justify taking a teacher away from the classroom.

I ask the Minister to set up a committee of inquiry to look at the teaching profession in Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North has said that we should give teachers the rewards they deserve. I agree. If we do so we shall see a tremendous increase in recruitment and dedication, in a truly dedicated profession.

9.52 p.m.

Mr. James Hamilton (Bothwell)

I associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. John Smith). We both represent Lanarkshire constituencies and with that in mind I intend to follow his lead.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Buchanan) has introduced the Glasgow situation. It is not dissimilar from that prevailing in Lanarkshire. He rightly mentioned that teachers desire promotion. This is not something new, because there are ambitious people in all professions. The only way they can further their careers is through promotion. In some cases there are inter-changes between Glasgow and Lanarkshire for promotion purposes. This means that when a teacher leaves Lanarkshire for promotion in Glasgow and vice versa there is a diminution in the number of teachers in one of these areas.

I do not subscribe to the view that we do not have a shortage of primary teachers. The other week I visited four primary schools in my constituency. I did not select them for any particular reason. I found that two were short of teachers. This is partly because many young people are entering the profession, but the women then get married and leave the profession, often permanently. There is therefore a constant wastage. The teachers' organisations have consistently said that there should be classes of 30. In many instances in Lanarkshire we have classes of 37 and in one instance, at New Stevenston in my constituency, there is a class of 38.

If we are to encourage people into the profession it is of paramount importance that we take careful note of the salaries paid. We have to consider the sacrifices made by these young people. When they enter the profession they get £1,300. That seems a handsome figure but after taxation it can come down to less than £20 a week to take home. I can talk with some authority on this because two of my daughters are in the profession. How can we expect young teachers to begin married life in a proper fashion and to build up a home of their own on this wage? It is impossible for a person earning that salary to get together the deposit required for purchasing a home, let alone to pay the mortgage.

Local authorities have power to provide houses for young married teachers, and Lanarkshire does a remarkable job here. I ask the Government to encourage local authorities to provide a selection of houses for teachers instead of just in the areas in which they work.

We in opposition have had much to say about the Strathclyde region. With the serious shortage of secondary teachers in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Renfrewshire, I do not know how the new Strathclyde authority will solve the problem.

The Minister will, no doubt, refer to the raising of the school leaving age. My hon. Friend the Member for Springburn is consistent in his criticism, but I remind him that the raising of the school leaving age was first suggested in 1946 and the Labour Government said that they would implement it. To be fair to the present Government, it is they who have introduced it. We had difficulties in schools before the raising of the school leaving age and we should not allow ourselves to be side-tracked by that.

In my constituency there are three junior secondary schools and money has been allocated for a new comprehensive school. Unfortunately, possibly because of the brake that has been put on public expenditure by the Government, no conclusion has yet been reached. We are having to wait a long time for the decision. We have three schools for part- time education and in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson) the high school is bursting at the seams and many children are not getting an adequate education.

We have a serious shortage of technical teachers and of mathematics and science teachers. There is also a shortage of physical education teachers. There has been a cut-back in the number of students admitted to Cramond College. Many primary school teachers are transferring to Cramond College to take an extra year's training to become secondary and physical education teachers. If we could take such a step in Lanarkshire, there is a possibility that our problem could be solved in a short time. This is a serious point and I hope that the Minister will take due note of it.

It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. Gray.]

Mr. James Hamilton

The Educational Institute of Scotland, a leading organisation representing teachers, put forward a reasonable suggestion that there should be a working party on teachers' conditions. Many of these matters have been set out in a memorandum and I do not agree with some of the points which it contains. We have some good schools in Lanarkshire, some of which are newly built, but because of Government policy many of these newly-constructed schools have proved to be far too small. Within a matter of months, additions to these school premises have proved to be necessary. This is another aspect of the matter which I hope the Minister will consider.

I wish also to mention the fact that the Senior Secondary Teachers' Association is to carry out a strike ballot. If that ballot goes in the direction the association thinks, there will be a teachers' strike in Scotland. This will raise a very serious situation.

The Scottish Schoolmasters' Association suggested that a Royal Commission should be set up to consider this whole matter. I am all in favour of such a commission, but such bodies take a long time to arrive at their conclusions. It takes even longer for those conclusions to bear fruit and to be implemented. A Royal Commission is more a matter for the long term. Many of my hon. Friends and I are most concerned that this problem should be resolved as quickly as possible.

I appreciate that the Minister today met colleagues from the Lanarkshire County Council on two matters—the serious shortage of teachers and the question of school building. The local authorities are now producing a brochure on the delights of Lanarkshire, which is a wonderful county. We must project Lanarkshire's image because many people want to visit the county. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will be able to say that his meeting with the local authorities was fruitful. My constituency covers a wide catchment area, but I hope that in regard to Bellshill School the Minister will be able to give me news which will bring a great deal of relief to the people in my constituency and in the catchment area to which I have referred.

10.4 p.m.

Mr. Neil Carmichael (Glasgow, Woodside)

I hope that the Minister will allow me to say just a few words on this subject, and I promise him that I shall be brief. Because of the curtailment of the last debate the Minister has been given an opportunity to take a little more time to answer some of our points than perhaps is usually the case.

It is reasonable that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Buchanan) and I should take part in this debate since this subject is common to Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire and Dunbartonshire. I have already pointed out in the Scottish Grand Committee that a number of buses leave my constituency every morning to take teachers to Dumbarton. Therefore, when I speak about the general teacher shortage, I am speaking of the shortage in the whole of the area of western Scotland. It is not an exaggeration to say that the situation is fairly desperate and we hope that the Minister will have much more up-to-date information than we have and will be able to allay some of our worries.

As a result of talking to the teaching bodies and those who have approached us on the matter, we gather that the whole situation is ready to boil over. The SSTA is holding a ballot on the possibility of a strike, and the EIS is accepting the fact that there will probably be a strike in Glasgow on, I think, 22nd January. Whether we agree with what they are doing, the fact remains that these are responsible people who have reached the point of exasperation.

The EIS has published, as a separate page in its journal, the five points which it considers should be dealt with, and staffs have been asked to display this on notice boards. The list covers such things as conditions for staff, the number of pupils per teacher, working conditions generally, and so on. The EIS has said that if any of these conditions is not met the staff will have its full backing in refusing to continue working. The situation is serious, and I am sure that the Minister is aware of it. That being so, I hope that he will tonight give us some helpful answers.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North made a point about the special recruitment scheme. We should like to know how many are being recruited through this scheme. The need is to gain more teachers and to provide another means of obtaining professional and academic qualifications. I hope that the Minister will tell us how many people have been recruited, and for how long the scheme is likely to run.

Reference was made to young people leaving school on their sixteenth birthday. I should like to hear both points of view. This is not something that can be ignored. Whether pupils can in some way be licensed when they reach the age of 16 to enable them to go to work is an important matter.

Almost every authority in the West of Scotland, and in other parts, too, is concerned about the inadequacy of school buildings, and I know that the architects are unhappy about the amount of money that they are allowed to spend per square foot in these days of rapidly escalating prices.

I was appalled when visiting an almost brand new school in my constituency—it is probably only a year old—to see the staff conditions for teachers. I found that about 80 teachers are required to share one large room. We must consider the whole question of the status of teachers and give them something that we have only now begun to enjoy in the House of Commons, and that is a little individuality. We must provide for two or perhaps three teachers to share a room. That is perhaps asking for the moon, but we should consider giving teachers the minimum professional equipment to enable them to carry out their work.

I ask the Minister to study carefully what all the teachers' organisations in Scotland are saying, namely, that it is necessary to take a completely fresh look at things. A committee of inquiry, a parliamentary inquiry, a working party, or even a Royal Commission on teachers' conditions should be put in hand. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) that a Royal Commission should be considering the matter, but I believe that something more fundamental should be done. Even if the Government think that a Royal Commission is necessary, they should provide for an interim inquiry.

I am sure that we are all indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North for raising this debate. I hope that the Minister will seriously consider the various matters that have been raised. When we come back after the recess there may be a case not just for an adjournment debate but for a full day's discussion of the various issues involved. Unless we receive some reasonable and helpful answers from the Minister tonight the situation may develop in such a way that it will be necessary to debate the whole question of a teacher shortage in an atmosphere of genuine crisis.

10.10 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education, Scottish Office (Mr. Hector Monro)

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. John Smith), to his hon. Friends the Members for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) and Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Buchanan) and to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Wood-side (Mr. Carmichael) from the Opposition Front Bench for speaking on this very important topic. Before discussing the main points which the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North made about secondary staffing I want briefly to refer to the primary situation and, although the hon. Member for Springburn spoke basically about Glasgow, most of the weight in my replies will of course relate to Lanarkshire, which is the basis of the debate.

Nationally the supply of primary teachers went up by about 900 last year and nearly all education authorities are well on the way to the improved standards set for 1975–76. These are a pupil-teacher ratio of 25:1 and a maximum class average of 30. Next summer we estimate that there will be a further net addition of 1,000 teachers for primary schools. Lanarkshire shows a steady improvement and shortages are not widespread. The existing staff is 2,935 and reported shortages are 37. That is about 1 per cent. of the complement of primary teachers

The prospects for the Lanarkshire education authority are good If we look at the graph of the pupil-teacher ratio in recent years we see that in 1969 it was 36.5, in 1971, 32.6, and in 1973, 28.6. It shows a steady improvement in primary education and it is significant. This has to be compared with the neighbouring authorities of Glasgow with 29.5, Renfrew with 26.8 and, significantly, Dumbarton with 21. That shows what can be achieved with the real determination that the Dumbarton education authority have shown. The overall average in Scotland was 24.6. Lanarkshire is likely to get a reasonable share of the additional supply next summer.

Dealing still with primary education, the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North asked about Gartcosh primary school. I was awakened at 7.30 this morning to hear it mentioned on BBC radio. The position is not quite so serious as the hon. Gentleman suggests. This is perhaps welcome news. The latest information about the position which I received this morning from the education authority indicates that the head teacher has always had the assistance of one full-time teacher and that from today another teacher will be working in the mornings. A further appointment has been made and the teacher will take up the post in the New Year. After Christmas the situation should be substantially better than it is today. In addition the authority has hopes of getting temporary relief from another school. These changes should materially improve the position, which was serious when it was down to the head teacher and one assistant. I hope that the measure of part-time education which the education authority introduced recently will soon be discontinued.

There are two other primary schools in Lanarkshire on part-time education. They are St. Michael's at Moodiesburn and Chapelside at Airdrie. At each school two classes are losing about half a day a week. We must keep part-time education in perspective. Some parents may feel that there is a massive discontinuance of education, but frequently it is just a matter of hours or a half day a week.

Mr. John Smith

Has the hon. Gentleman similar good news about St. Michael's at Moodiesburn as he has just been able to give about Gartcosh primary school?

Mr. Monro

I have not today got encouraging information about Moodiesburn, but I hope that the situation will improve after Christmas. There are staff shortages in primary schools, but the real problem in at least one school is due to illness among teachers.

I want to turn to the secondary school situation which is the major burden of the debate tonight. I should like first to describe the national position, because it is right to put the Lanarkshire situation in the national context.

In the first place, there are more secondary teachers than ever before. In recent years the increase has been startling—from 20,900 in 1971 to 24,200 in September 1973. That is an increase of 3,300 teachers or 15.7 per cent. This figure has to be set against an increase in secondary school pupils of 14.7 per cent. In short, the teacher position has more than matched the effects of RSLA growth, and on a national basis the schools are better supplied than they were two years ago.

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Spring-burn brought out the point about the RSLA. We must keep in mind the point he raised about its introduction; namely, that by and large—I say "by and large" in a broad sense—"roofs over heads" for the RSLA are well on the way to completion, if not already completed. The great pressure for secondary school building is more for improvement than "roofs over heads". I shall deal more with school building in Lanarkshire, if there is time, because that was a subject about which we talked earlier. That is the general national indication.

In Lanarkshire for the last two years the number of pupils has increased by 17.1 per cent. against an increase of 13.5 per cent. in its teaching force. The disparity is more marked in the Roman Catholic schools, where the number of pupils has increased by 17.6 per cent., but staff by only 10.7 per cent. This is the great concern of maldistribution. As I said, the overall Scottish picture in national figures is not unreasonable, but in areas of Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Renfrewshire the situation is more difficult in numbers, subjects and denominations, because the Catholic situation is so serious. All three authorities that I have mentioned have increased their staffs considerably, but they started from a much lower base. That is why the net position in Lanarkshire is so serious. The current pupil-teacher ratio in Lanarkshire is 19.8 to 1, which I accept is the worst in Scotland. This compares with a ratio of 19.2 to 1 in 1971. I should make it clear that the present position is better than it was previously when, as recently as 1969, the pupil-teacher ratio was 20.9 to 1.

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn suggested that I might take refuge in the figures. I shall not. But we must have some form of yardstick. That is why it is necessary to explain what "shortage" means. There are at present no objective commonly accepted standards by which to measure the staffing position in any authority, each at the moment having its own standard. My Department published in March a report, "Secondary School Staffing", which sets out standards which could be used by all authorities. We are still consulting interested bodies, but the proposals have generally received a favourable welcome. They offer a means of determining objectively the staffing complement appropriate for this or that type of school, according to its size. These standards are not proposed to be general for some years yet, but applying them today to the Lanarkshire schools, the shortage in the county is 630 teachers, as the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North said. This is a very high figure, and I should emphasise that it is related to standards not yet adopted and not yet due for achievement. Indeed, on Lanarkshire's own standards the current deficiency is about 350.

There will be a marginal improvement in January when, following Christmas, about 2,000 pupils leave the schools in Lanarkshire. This will help, but there will still be difficulties. At the same time, it is a notable fact that only four secondary schools in the county are having to provide part-time education and the pupils affected are losing not more than three hours per week.

I join in paying tribute to the teachers who are coping so well in these difficult circumstances. I should like to give my share of praise to them. I hope, following what I still have to say, that they will think very carefully before they take any damaging action towards the end of next month.

This morning I was very willing to meet the authority to discuss its problems and ways of reducing them. It was a pure coincidence that it occurred this morning. It was arranged a long time ago, long before this debate was announced. Today I met Mr. Bell, chairman of the education committee, two of his colleagues, the Director of Education and other officials. I should say that just before the meeting I had handed to me a petition about staff shortages signed by a large number of parents of pupils at St. Aidan's School, Wishaw. We had a very constructive talk. Some of the points which were raised were similar to those raised by hon. Members tonight, and I should like to run over them and give my indications as quickly as I can.

First, they raised unanimously the question of salaries. A good point can be made that the higher the salary the more atractive the job. This is an issue which begins on 18th December when the Scottish Teachers Salaries Committee begins its discussions and negotiations for the awards to be made next year. It would be inappropriate for me' to comment on what is entirely then-decision at this stage.

I want to deal with the question of designation. This is important. Under the present scheme Lanarkshire has nearly 1,600 posts, 135 of them primary, available to them for designation. I was very glad earlier this year to be able to obtain a few extra posts that had previously been allocated to the east of Scotland and are now doing useful work in the west. Fully a third of all the posts available under the scheme in Scotland are in Lanarkshire.

The authority, like the hon. Member, has pressed for an increase in the allowances. My Department has already started consultations about the review of the scheme, and I believe that it is of absolutely first importance that it be revised to make it attractive in the schools where it is most needed. I hope that before long I shall be able to put proposals to the Scottish Teachers Salaries Committee which, as salaries are involved, has to decide the final form. I give a very high number of marks to the designation scheme and I look forward to seeing it continue in the future. In a way, the designation scheme is an under-manning payment in reverse, and I do not think that we should lose sight of that fact.

I should like to put firmly on the record the misconception about the recruitment scheme. It has not been discontinued. I have spoken and written about it continually for the last year. It continues to help graduates and those who hold diplomas in other fields to become teachers. At the moment there are about 400 awards for this year, nearly all in secondary work.

Coming to quotas, which is another important issue, the best way to look at it is to consider how important it is for the staffing scheme which we have put forward to be accepted. I think this will be the most important way of bringing home to authorities what the staffing ratios ought to be so that those authorities which have an excess of teachers will see it before them on paper. This tailor-made scheme which applies to every school will show the authorities where they are in surplus. Where teachers are in surplus, the authorities will not be eligible for rate support grant, and the ratepayers will rightly criticise the council for employing more teachers than it should. Directly, I think, this will have an effect in encouraging teachers to apply for posts in, say, Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Renfrewshire, where they are required and where there is room for them.

I am reluctant to think in terms of, so to speak, ordering teachers by a quota system to go to other authorities, since we are at this moment trying to encourage authorities to have the greatest amount of power possible, and to do that would be to take away from them a duty which they should be able to look after themselves.

The Hamilton College of Education has been the subject of comment. It is a first-class college of education for primary teachers. The case for secondary involvement was pressed strongly this morning by Doctor McEwan, and again tonight by hon. Members. I accept the point that it has had an effect on primary teachers in Lanarkshire, and we shall, because it was argued so cogently this morning, look at that case. I think it only right to say, however, that at present we have sufficient college of education places for secondary teachers in Scotland and it would be wrong to start building more places. We have to accept that the geographical decision, as it were, to put them where they are was taken some years ago, and they are not necessarily ideally placed in the circumstances of Lanarkshire today.

Mr. James Hamilton

I know that time is against the Minister, but I must put this to him. He speaks of sufficient places for secondary teachers to take their final year at the college, but will he not agree that, for physical education, especially in the Catholic schools, many people have the necessary qualifications but there is no room for them?

Mr. Monro

I certainly take that point. I wish to put on record the pleasure I had in hearing from the authority, and hearing how well the county and burghs in Lanarkshire are doing in making houses available. I hope that other authorities will bear this in mind, including, perhaps, the provision of flats for younger teachers, and I noted the point made by the hon. Member for Bothwell in this connection.

This morning, we discussed school building in fair detail, and what I have to add now I shall say as quickly as I can lest I get stopped in mid-stream by the clock. As hon. Members know, we have a small amount of money still available for the main programme. I was impressed by what Lanarkshire said this morning. We shall be discussing urgently with the authority what additional help we can give, and we hope to announce this in a few weeks' time.

In relation to school building, I should say that Lanarkshire had £12,854,000 in its main programme in 1972–73, and this year, 1974–75, the year we are talking about, the figure is just under £6 million. So it has had a reasonable allocation. I appreciate how much there is to be done in Lanarkshire, particularly in the light of present developments which the county council put to me today, including the growth of population and the large number of new private houses being built in the area.

Overall, I feel that the situation—

Mr. James Hamilton

What about Bellshill?

Mr. Monro

The hon. Gentleman made an important point about Bellshill. The Scottish Development Department will be putting its recommendations to the Secretary of State in the very near future, and we shall then be able to give a decision on the planning application which is now before the local authority. I take on board the importance which the hon. Gentleman has attached not only tonight but frequently in the last year to a Roman Catholic school in Bellshill. There is no question but that the hon. Gentleman has done a great deal to represent the interests of his constituents as ably as possible in this matter.

Although there are difficulties in Lanarkshire, I hope that the situation will improve—

The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.