HC Deb 17 April 1973 vol 855 cc269-71
Mr. Speaker

Mr. Grimond—a point of order.

Mr. Grimond

The point of order I sought to raise with you earlier today, Mr. Speaker, concerns the Zetland County Council Bill. The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), who is now blocking this Bill, in a previous debate made certain allegations and stated certain facts about the acquiral of properties in the north of Scotland which have been well known for the last two years. By this Bill, to which the hon. Member objects, the local council seeks to control some of these activities.

Last week he said he did not necessarily object to the Bill in principle. I submit that this is a Second Reading and that we are concerned with principle. At a later stage the numerous petitions against the Bill will, of course, be subject to scrutiny, which is what the hon. Member wants. But he is in my view abusing the processes of the House because, as to what he wants and what he said later, he does not necessarily object to the principle of the Bill. He is merely causing expense to the local authority and holding up extremely urgent legislation.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Douglas, on a point of order.

Mr. Douglas

I apologise for raising the question in this manner but I believe the point needs clarification.

I seek guidance here. I understand that a Second Reading of a private Bill relates to objection on the grounds of public policy. The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) said on 12th April—and I apologise for not having given him notice about raising this: Is it in order that we have to object when what we want is proper parliamentary scrutiny, and when we are not necessarily against the principle of the Bill?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April 1973; Vol. 854, c. 1479.] If that is the case, is it in order to have this type of objection when the hon. Member is not objecting to the principle of the Bill and when proper parliamentary scrutiny would be obtained in the Committee stage of the Bill?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) raised this as a point of order last Thursday. I am obliged to the hon. Member for having given notice of the point. I am therefore to some extent prepared for it. Whether my ruling will enlighten or not is another matter.

I should draw the attention of the House to the distinction between the Second Reading of a public and of a private Bill shown on page 900 of Erskine May as follows: … a public bill being founded on reasons of state policy, the House, in agreeing to its second reading, accepts and affirms those reasons; but the expediency of a private bill, being mainly founded upon allegations of fact, which have not yet been proved, the House, in agreeing to its second reading, affirms the principle of the Bill conditionally and subject to the proof of such allegations before the Committee. There is no rule which debars any Member from discussing any aspect of a private Bill on Second Reading whether the matter be one to which he objects or one on which he wishes to obtain further information.

The Zetland County Council Bill is a substituted Bill, that is, a measure introduced as a provisional order on which the Chairman of Ways and Means together with the Lord Chairman have reported under Section 2 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936 that questions of public policy of such novelty and importance were raised that they ought to be dealt with by private Bill. These are matters which may properly be canvassed by the House before the Bill is allowed to proceed.

Hon. Members will know that private Bills are set down for consideration at seven o'clock on an evening chosen by the Chairman of Ways and Means after objection voiced in the House, that objection being not necessarily to the merits of the Bill but to the House being asked to pass a stage of the Bill without debate at 2.30 p.m.

I hope that that clarifies the situation.

Mr. English

Is there not one point of some importance here? The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) has explained that my hon. Friend is blocking the Bill. If an hon. Member blocks a public Bill on a Friday, it stops and cannot pass. Is it not the case that the Chairman of Ways and Means always has the power to set private Bills down for debate?

Mr. Speaker

That is so.