HC Deb 17 April 1973 vol 855 cc393-419

10.12 p.m.

The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William van Straubenzee)

I beg to move, That the Recreation and Youth Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th March, be approved. I sometimes think that when we are considering all that is involved in the rebuilding of Northern Ireland after the ravages of these last few years of violence—violence which, I am thankful to say, has been markedly unsuccessful in bringing the life of the Province to a standstill—one of the most important parts of the rebuilding process will lie in the field of youth. Obviously, tonight I cannot discuss that in any depth but I commend this order as one of the steps, although I emphasise only one, by which we shall make increasingly effective provision for the young in recreation and in youth services.

The House will see that it imposes— and I repeat "imposes"—upon the new district councils to be elected on 30th May a specific duty to secure the provision for their areas of adequate facilities for recreational, social, physical and cultural activities, and it gives the councils power to maintain the facilities and to co-operate with others in their provision and maintenance. I emphasised a moment ago the word "imposes" because this contrasts with the present powers of local councils, which are permissive only. This was a point commented upon appreciatively by the noble Lady Baroness Serota in another place.

The local councils will not necessarily have to provide all these facilities themselves. They can do so, for example, in co-operation with the voluntary organisations, and I stress that because the Government attach much importance to the voluntary organisations.

Perhaps I should say as an aside that the order does not itself provide for what is to happen in the event of a council's not fulfilling its obligations. I hope and believe that this is a purely academic point but, in case any hon. Member takes the point, there are in fact general provi- sions in the Local Government Act 1972 which give the Ministry of Development power to take action where a council fails to discharge any of its functions, and that would apply here, of course.

The House also knows that under the reorganisation proposals for local government in Northern Ireland youth welfare, which is at present a function of the local education authorities, will become a specific responsibility of the new education and library boards, which will also have duties in the recreational field. Quite obviously I make this point here because there is the possibility of some overlap.

The boards will be involved as education authorities and will be providing recreational facilties in buildings intended primarily for school use. I am thinking, for example, of a recreational centre attached to a school or a swimming bath within the curtilage of educational buildings. The co-ordination will be carried out by the Ministry of Education assisted by the Sports Council and by the Youth Committee. In this way I hope and really do believe, having looked closely at this, that we can both co-ordinate provisions throughout Northern Ireland and avoid overlap.

I accept that it will be necessary to ensure that district councils have adequate financial resources to enable them to carry out the duties which the order places upon them. The House will know that present legislation prescribes a maximum of 65 per cent or, in the case of the acquisition of land, 75 per cent. to the rate of grant which may be paid by the Ministry of Education to local authorities in respect of their approved expenditure.

The House will see that Article 10 of the order, while continuing the provision for the payment of grant by the Ministry, does not specify a rate or impose a maximum. This is because a new system of district and regional rates is being introduced in Northern Ireland as part of the local government reorganisation, and we felt it better not to specify a rate of grant in this order until we have had experience of the new arrangements.

It may be helpful, however, if I say that I anticipate that in the early years at least grant will be paid at the same levels as at present. In these days of greater specialisation and increasing cost it may on occasions be desirable to provide a regional centre for general sports purposes, for example in connection with a particular activity, or even possibly on an all-Northern Ireland basis. Article 9(3) enables a district council with special approval to provide such a facility.

The Sports Council which will be set up under the order will not only have the duty of advising the Ministry and other bodies on sports and physical recreational matters generally and of encouraging participation in, and the provision of facilities, but will itself be responsible for providing assistance to voluntary organisations in respect of their expenditure, for example on administration, coaching, participation in international events and the provision of equipment. It will have power to employ staff and to carry out functions relating to sport and physical recreation, functions which have in the past been carried out by the Central Council for Physical Recreation.

The proposals, which are long-standing ones, have been discussed with the Sports Council in Great Britain, and the Ministry of Education in Northern Ireland has given assurances about the taking over of staff in Northern Ireland. In turn it has received assurances of close liaison between the Northern Ireland Sports Council and the Council in Great Britain. I have no doubt that the Northern Ireland Council will benefit greatly from access to the much greater resources and experience of the organisation in Great Britain just as in former years the Northern Ireland section of the Central Council for Physical Recretation was able to do.

The order also envisages the appointment of a Youth Committee by the Minister for Education, and it will be seen from the schedules that the Minister in both cases is obliged to consult appropriate bodies before making the appointments. It will be seen, too, that contact between the two bodies will be maintained among other ways through the fact that the Chairman of the Committee and the Chairman of the Council will be members of the other body.

I have little doubt that there will be others who will serve on both bodies. They, too, will provide a link between the two services. I have already made clear the importance which the Government attach to voluntary organisations in this field and as one who, with many other hon. Members, has service behind him in such voluntary organisations, I should be the last to underestimate their importance.

The order continues to provide the support now given by the Ministry to such organisations. Voluntary sports and youth organisations will be able to obtain grants both on capital and recurrent account either from the Ministry of Education or from the Sports Council. I hope that in due time it will be possible to transfer to the education and library boards the sole responsibility for assisting youth clubs with their recurring expenditure. I see this as strengthening the links between the education boards and the local youth organisations. This would, of course, still retain the Ministry's responsibility for capital grants, which I envisage will remain with the Ministry for as long as we can foresee.

This change, if it is made, can be made within the terms of the present order, but I want the new boards to have a chance of finding their feet before making any such change. If I were responsible in any way I should want to make such a change only after consultation with all concerned.

I opened by stressing the importance which the Government attach to the provision for the young people of Northern Ireland. Such provision is most certainly not awaiting Parliament's approval of this order, important as it is. There is in hand a comprehensive programme for the provision of indoor sports centres, leisure centres, swimming pools, playing fields, youth centres, youth clubs and centres for outdoor pursuits or field studies in Northern Ireland. The estimated expenditure on capital schemes in the period up to 1978 is expected to be about £14 million.

There are seven major schemes planned for the new Belfast district. Work is in progress on one of the indoor sports and leisure centres outside Belfast— namely, at Craigavon. Swimming pools have already been provided at Lurgan and Portadown. A major indoor sports centre at Antrim opened soon after Christmas. I recently visited the site of a leisure centre which is planned at Londonderry, which will cost £650,000. I merely give some examples to show the very substantial expenditure in capital terms which is being made available to this most important work. I believe that it will be assisted by the advances set out in the order, which I now commend to the House.

10.23 p.m.

Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton)

The order was debated in another place on 10th April. Perhaps we might avail ourselves of that fact and not ask questions which have already been answered. I am thus enabled to be as brief, as I think the House might wish after the labours of the last two days.

I begin by echoing what my noble Friend Baroness Serota said in another place when offering congratulations to the Government and particularly to their draftsmen in relation to Article 9, which was mentioned by the Under-Secretary of State. We could not have wished for anything more vigorous and positive than the following words: Each district council shall secure the provision for its area of adequate facilities for recreational, social, physical and cultural activities …. I understand that Sir Patrick Macrory's Committee on local government recommended that that responsibility should be laid on district councils. It is pleasing that it has been so clearly and en-forceably imposed as a responsibility and placed in the order so positively. That will no doubt be welcomed by all the most energetic and progressive councils.

One notes, too, the wide scope of the activities contemplated. That is not obvious from the order itself, but it is clear from what the Minister said and what was said in another place. Not. every young person, particularly at present, wants to participate in a disciplined sport with rigid rules. It is pleasing to hear that these provisions are intended to include such activities as adventure facilities such as those available at Fally-more in the very attractive setting of the moors.

I would add one hesitant note, without detracting from anything that I have already said. I was a little troubled by the provisions for the appointment both to the Sports Council and to the Youth Committee as set out in Schedules 1 and 2. This provision says that the Minister may appoint: … after consultation with such persons as appear to him to represent district councils, education and library boards", and, in the one case, participants in sport and recreation and in the other case voluntary youth organisations.

That provision should be used imaginatively, but, like the Minister, I have had experience both of the organisational side of sporting activities and of youth work. One knows how establishment-minded even the bodies representing those activities can become. Certainly, this is capable of being a formula which could generate a somewhat establishment body.

There is no institutional method of ensuring imaginative appointments. That must rest with the Secretary of State. I certainly do not suggest that it should be a positive qualification for appointment that the appointee should never have had any experience of public service, but I hope that there will be some appointments from those who are young enough actually to participate in athletic activities or youth work. Since that description could apply to me may I say at once that I mean those who can participate without constantly having to augment their waning powers?

This is a golden opportunity to bring energetic young people into responsible consultation, to have them working together with the authorities and not against them, feeling that there is something for them in the whole system of public administration and accepting a stake in the community, along with the responsibilities which go with it. This is a good and imaginative scheme and I welcome it, but I hope that it will be as positive in its operation as it is in its conception.

10.28 p.m.

Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

Once again, we are dealing with an Order in Council which should have been a Bill, in the normal course of events, at Stormont, and the kind of thing that one would have hoped, if the White Paper proposals were to come into being and operate as the Government fondly hope they will, would come before the new Assembly.

After two days' debate on Northern Ireland problems, one cannot come fresh to this matter and deal with the sports and youth services of Northern Ireland in the way in which this should be done. I would merely reiterate the point made so often every time this procedure is used—how thoroughly unsatisfactory it all is.

In the Bill with which we have just finished, there were provisions for pretty Draconian methods of dealing with young offenders. We now consider a measure which at any rate purports to be positive in dealing with young people, cannot give it much more at this time of night. If any young people from Northern Ireland happen to be in the public gallery, they will find it very strange that we deal with the matter in this way.

In introducing our attitude on the matter, I want to ask my hon. Friend the Minister of State one fundamental question about it. I was surprised that he did not touch on this. Why is it necessary to have two bodies? Looking at the structure as a whole, and all the various bodies involved in it, it seems a very cumbersome and bureaucratic method of dealing with the problem. As I understand it, there was formerly a Youth and Sports Council, which paragraph 8 abolishes. At one time the functions—which may not have been the same functions—were administered by the same body. My hon. Friend might have told us about this fundamental matter and why there should be two bodies. It still seems possible that it could have been done under one body. This course seems to proliferate the number of people to be appointed.

I take up the important point made by the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer). We ought to hear from the Minister of State what he has in mind on the method of appointment to these bodies. The hon. and learned Gentleman was perfectly right when he said that we want the right kind of people to be appointed. I do not like the idea of leaving appointments solely in the hands of a Minister. even though we put upon the Minister the duty of taking advice from certain bodies. I am not sure whether a better method could not have been devised We might have produced a council or two councils which were more representative of interests. We might have had some form of representative council. All kinds of difficulties are involved in this.

If the order had been a Bill, this is one of the matters on which we could have tabled a series of amendments from people closely interested in it. We could have had a proper argument. Out of the Committee procedure we could have found a sensible method of appointment to these bodies. We would have had the chance of various voices coming through. There is a great deal of wisdom in our Committee procedure. We cannot have that tonight. All that we can do is to ask my hon. Friend for his opinion. The order is not capable of amendment.

On the general question of finance, my hon. Friend talked about the £14 million capital expenditure. I am not sure of the period about which he was talking— whether it was capital expenditure already undertaken up to date, or proposed expenditure of £14 million in the current year.

Mr. van Straubenzee

It might be convenient if I made it clear that what I said—as I hope HANSARD will reveal— was that that figure is an expenditure figure on capital schemes in the period up to 1978.

Captain Orr

That puts a slightly different complexion on what I thought that it was. I was about to welcome it warmly if it were for the current year. If that is the provision up to 1978, plainly it is not very great in the context of what has to be done in Northern Ireland. This matter ought to be examined again.

My hon. Friend said nothing about the rate of grant except that it was the intention that in the early years the grant would remain at the same levels as at present. I hope that I understood my hon. Friend correctly in that respect. Again that does not strike me—if we are making provisions for recreational facilities for youth—as a very imaginative or generous approach. I would have thought that there was ample reason, in the light of all that has happened in Ulster and in the light of the concern about the youth of the country, for us to have at least a small percentage rise on present levels. My hon. Friend might say something more about that in replying.

A positive duty has been laid upon the district councils. What will happen in the meantime? There are no districts councils now and there will not be any until October. After that the councils have to begin their work. It seems that not much work can be done upon this measure until next year. I wonder whether my hon. Friend envisages a standstill in the meantime, or is the intervening period to be used for making plans and thinking about things? We shall support the order but we would have wished to have a proper debate and an examination of the whole somewhat cumbersome process.

10.37 p.m.

Mr. Cyril Smith (Rochdale)

I hope that the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) will forgive me if I do not follow his remarks too closely, except to say that I can see the reason for having separate Sports and Youth Councils, if only because of the difference in ages of the people with whom the two bodies are likely to deal. My attitude to this order is similar to that of the hon. and gallant Member. I welcome it but doubt whether it goes far enough.

I am not sure how far the Minister is au fait with the development of the Youth Service in this country. It is already something of an antiquated affair. More and more authorities are developing youth and community services. The two services are being integrated. The order would have been better if it had set up such a service. We could then have investigated the possibility of establishing community schools in which the youth service could be based. There is also the possibility of a family-oriented service, when all the family, mother, father and children, could attend community centres which would include facilities other than simply those for youth. That has certain economic advantages. In the context of Northern Ireland there might also be social advantages. The order is doing something that is necessary but it does not go far enough. It is a model for the 1950's rather than one for the 1980's, which is what we ought to have had.

10.40 p.m.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

I want to record yet again my protest about the procedure for bringing important business relating to Northern Ireland at and in a manner which does not permit at the end of the day by Order in Council of amendments or a Committee stage.

We are dealing with matters of the utmost importance. I become extremely bewildered when I study the orders placed before the House. If Members of Parliament are bewildered—I realise we may not be credited with much intelligence— I wonder what the long-suffering community in Northern Ireland must feel when they find important legislation brought before the House in this way.

We heard a lot of talk yesterday about not being able to trust the proposed new Assembly in Northern Ireland with security. It is apparently not to be trusted with the Youth and Sports Council. The order, in Article 6, provides: The Sports Council shall prepare and transmit to the Ministry an annual report on the exercise by the Council of its functions and the Ministry shall lay a copy of that report before each House of Parliament. One House has no official representatives from Northern Ireland. There may be a few Northern Ireland people who have been declared redundant and, like Caesar, buried in the House of Lords, but there are no official Members. The Prime Minister has never approached Members of the Ulster Unionist Party, which is associated with the Conservative Party, for nominations for the other place.

What is more, this House, which has 12 Members from Northern Ireland, is to have a report which should be the concern of the proposed new Assembly for Northern Ireland. That report should be laid before that new Assembly which will have a direct interest in and association with the people of Northern Ireland.

I am amazed that we should have this order before the House of Commons. Surely this is a matter with which the new Assembly could be trusted. I realise that sport in Northern Ireland has at times a political and religious flair. It may be feared that it has what in Scotland is known as a Rangers-Celtic confrontation. It may be fear of that which keeps the Minister here tonight waiting for the order to be approved.

The hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer), whose contributions to Northern Ireland are appreciated, has mentioned the important part that district councils are to play. The idea of the Macrory Report was that the district councils' functions should be tied into the old Stormont Parliament. Now that there is no old Stormont Parliament, may I ask whether the Government have changed their thinking? Are they proposing to tie in the working of the district councils in these areas to this Parliament, not to the proposed new Assembly? This would be a very interesting policy change. I adduce this from what is written into the order.

Another point concerns accountability. We never get satisfaction in this House. The Comptroller and Auditor-General is on his own. He has joined Sinn Fein. We ourselves alone see the accounts of the departments in Northern Ireland. I was chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in the old Stormont Parliament which was going into some extremely interesting matters that called for investigation. When Parliament was prorogued, of course, that committee was also prorogued. I have never heard of the Public Accounts Committee of this House or of any hon. Member from Northern Ireland in this House having an opportunity of questioning the expenditure of the money we are voting for the forwarding of the interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

Article 5(3) provides: The Comptroller and Auditor-General in the discharge of his functions under paragraph (2)(b) may examine any accounts of the Sports Council". Is that the Comptroller and Auditor-General in this country or in Northern Ireland? It is not clear in the order. Will he be responsible for this? In paragraph (3) it says: The Comptroller andAuditor-General in the discharge of his functions … may examine any accountsof the Sports Council … and in the next paragraph The Ministry may confer on an officer appointed by it to audit the accounts of the Sports Council such rights of access … to books and documents and so forth. It does not say "The Ministry shall". It says "may"—and that is very important. There is no obligation on the Ministry to see that this takes place. These are matters that could well be ventilated in Committee and probed into.

I was especially interested in the valuable contribution by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Cyril Smith). In Northern Ireland there is a Community Relations Commission. It is not mentioned in the order. It is run by people who are opening recreational centres and dealing with matters concerning sports facilities in the various districts of Northern Ireland. But there is no mention in the order of how community relations should be related to the Sports Council or to the Youth Committee.

The Minister told us that £14 million was to be spent up to 1978. Will he also tell us when that £14 million began to be spent? Was it when direct rule took place? He mentioned a swimming pool in a certain town, but that pool was opened a long time ago. I should like to know how far the £14 million goes back. He told us that there were certain proposals in the Belfast area. Will he spell out what those proposals are?

Many years ago the people of the Shankill Road inaugurated a fund with a view to opening a youth centre in the district. They collected a large sum of money which is now invested. This is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) and I am certain that he knows a great deal about it. The money is invested in the interests of the Shankill YMCA, because that particular body had difficulties with it finances. The people who collected the money decided that the Shankill YMCA should have the benefit of the interest.

The people of the Shankill Road have been in touch with the Ministry and the community relations body. They are interested in the property that is available on the Shankill Road with a view to opening it up for the benefit of the children of that area. Anyone who knows the Shankill Road knows of the housing redevelopment programme there. The trouble is that when housing is demolished, the young people, who have nowhere else to carry on their sports activities use dilapidated places that have certain dangers. What progress is being made between the people who started this on a voluntary basis, the community relations body and the Northern Ireland Office? It would be most helpful if we could hear something about it.

I was interested to hear what the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton had to say about outdoor adventure centres. This is an important matter. What has happened with the negotiations which were taking place between the education committee of Belfast City Council and Antrim County Council about the establishment of such a centre in my constituency? I understand that these proposals have been under consideration for some time. I understand, too, that the people of Antrim —rightly so—would be more interested if the proposed outdoor adventure centre were to be for the children of the area in which it is placed.

The order is very important. I can see the point of setting up the Youth Committee and the Sports Council. But the Secretary of State should understand that in Northern Ireland there is some resentment about the way appointments have already been made to other bodies, and that resentment is not confined to one side or the other but is general throughout the whole community. It is questionable whether certain people who have been appointed are acceptable to the whole community.

Schedule 2(1) says: The Youth Committee shall consist of the chairman of the Sports Council and such other persons as the Minister, after consultation with such persons as appear to the Minister to represent education and library boards …". Surely the people to be consulted should be the members of these boards. I do not know why the provision should be so worded. Why does it not say, "Such persons who are members of education and library boards and voluntary youth organisations"? This provision gives the Minister very wide power. Why is there no provision, for example, whereby the Assembly will have the right to appoint certain people? The same applies to local councils.

What sort of liaison will be there between the district councils, the Youth Committee, the Sports Council and the Commission on Community Relations? I have uttered many criticisms of the Commission but it is at least attempting something. Some of the remarks made by some of its members have not been optimistic about the future but one cannot blame them when they are dealing with the every-day problems that are arising.

Paragraph 9 says: Each district council shall secure the provision for its area of adequate facilities for recreational, social, physical, and cultural activities and for that purpose may, either alone or together with another district council …". Hon. Members should remember that there are to be different rates in Northern Ireland—for example, there is to be a district rate for district councils. Is the money for the purpose of paragraph 9 to come in full or in part out of the district rate? Paragraph 9 goes on to say that each district council shall provide, or assist by financial contribution or otherwise in the provision of, leaders for such activities; and defray or contribute towards the expenses of any persons taking part in any such activities. Will the Minister now tell us what proportion of the money will come from the district council? Will it come from the district rate or from a contribution made by the Ministry to the district?

Mr. Frank McManus (Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am most interested in this aspect. Does the hon. Gentleman not take it that this money would in some way come out of the £14 million which has been mentioned? If it does, a small arithmetical calculation would show that each district council would have the large sum of slightly over £100,000 to provide these recreational facilities, and £100,000 will not do a great deal—or is this to be supplemented from the rates? These matters should be clearly spelt out, I agree.

Rev. Ian Paisley

I cannot say whether the hon. Gentleman's figure is correct, but I appreciate that it is an important point. The more one looks at these orders, the more one is concerned. I am glad that the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) is here, because in these debates we have not had spokesmen from his party. I should like to see them all because then the place would be packed. I welcome the fact that he is here. His contribution is valuable.

These are some of the things on which we could have co-operation, could raise interest and could get some unity. There is always unity among Opposition spokesmen when they join to get information out of Government: A fellow feeling makes one wondrous kind". Can the Minister tell us the financial arrangements which are to be made? I think that part of the £14 million would come in, but that would be small. The provision of a swimming pool requires a colossal amount of money. In my constituency a swimming pool has been provided recently in Ballymena. How much of that was granted and how much was granted for the pool in Armagh earlier?

All of us interested in the young people of Northern Ireland are interested in this order. I should like to see the young people of Northern Ireland devoting their minds to facilities which can be given to them to make them strong, healthy and clean and to take their minds away from the acts which soil and scar the body politic in Northern Ireland, and so lead forward to that day which we hope will not be long in coming when we can get back to peace, prosperity and progress and which Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain will enjoy once again.

10.59 p.m.

Mr. Frank McManus (Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

When the sum of £14 million is mentioned as an allocation it sounds quite a large amount, but when one divides it in any reasonable way, taking it up to 1978, it is less than £3 million a year. One reasonable way to divide it would be by the number of the district councils which are to come into being—26. Then it is £100,000 for each district council per year. It does not take a brilliant economist to realise that one will not provide many facilities for many people with that sort of money. I ask the Minister to see whether there are ways and means of increasing the global sum so that something meaningful can be done in each area of operation.

I wish to draw attention to paragraph 9 which says that: Each district council shall secure the provision for its area of adequate facilities …and for that purpose alone may … (c) assist, by financial contributions or otherwise, any person to establish, maintain and manage any such facilities … ". The Community Relations Commission has been mentioned, and I have in my constituency the town of Coalisland— which, incidentally would not vote for any hon. Member opposite and which was described by my predecessor on one electioneering occasion as a whirlpool of Republicanism—which is undoubtedly a socially-deprived area. I recently made representations to the Community Relations Commission to see whether grants could be made available for the establishment of a youth recreation centre. I received the somewhat strange answer that the town, because of its small size, could not qualify for grant. I was told that it would set a dangerous precedent if Coalisland, as a small community of 3,000 or 4,000 people, were to receive grant because it would mean that other small towns would want grants. I pointed out—in vain as it turned out—that there are not all that many towns in Northern Ireland with populations of the size of Coalisland's.

If the scheme is not to become operational until October when the new district councils become fully operational, will the Minister undertake to look into this point immediately? It is a long time until October and we probably have a long, hot summer to go through.

Rev. Ian Paisley

The marching season.

Mr. McManus

Yes, it will be the marching season. Therefore, it would be advantageous in the meantime for youth in this area and in similar areas to have some sort of facilities. Since representations have made, and since there is an organisation willing and able to undertake the task, I would ask the hon. Gentleman to see whether he can find a method of providing facilities for places such as Coalisland before there is any hold-up over who should be appointed to what body, and all the rest of it.

11.3 p.m.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I have for a long time advocated the amalgamation of the Ministry of Community Relations with the Ministry of Education. This order is evidence that there is a great need for administrative unity and I go along with what was said by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). I will leave it at that because he put the point very succintly.

I cannot help feeling a little bitter when I see immense sums of money being poured into the provision of youth facilities in the Falls, the Ardoyne, the Shankill and Londonderry City. I know that these are areas of special difficulty and that some degree of priority has to be given to provision for them, but I feel strongly that if we are not allowed to make similar provision throughout North Ireland we are likely soon to be faced with the problem of youthful violence, vandalism and contempt for authority which has caused so much concern elsewhere.

I make this point strongly and sincerely to the Minister. Young people throughout the Province away from areas of commotion and riot will feel that the only way for them to get money for the provision of sports facilities, indoors or out, is to engage in widespread violence and generally to make nuisances of themselves. That is not what we want in Northern Ireland. We are all united in trying to confine the violence and trouble to certain limited areas, but it seems that the policy of this Government—I say this fairly and squarely to my hon. Friend the Minister of State—is to funnel a great deal of money into certain areas. This causes great concern to many ordinary people in Northern Ireland who are not even mixed up in politics.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Is the hon. Member aware that a Bill was sponsored in the Stormont Parliament which referred only to grants of money for urban areas and when an attempt was made to widen the extent of the Bill to cover rural districts this was "hammered" by the Stormont Government? Is he aware that it is because of that decision that these grants are being made? I agree with the hon. Member completely, especially as I represent a rural area. I have the same problem in relation to Bush Mills as he has with Coalisland In asking for provision of sports facilities I have met blank wall opposition.

Mr. Kilfedder

I welcome that intervention and go along with what the hon. Member for Antrim, North said. I hope that the Government will take note of these remarks and not just say a few kind words. The Minister of State speaks charmingly, so charmingly that when he says "No" it almost seems like "Yes", but what we want is reality. That is what the people of Northern Ireland want.

I can speak of the sad situation in my area. I ask the Minister of State, how much of the £14 million has been spent in North Down since the suspension of Stormont on providing facilities for recreational, social, physical and cultural activities referred to in this order? My hon. Friend knows my concern about four youth centres which have been in the pipeline since 1968, having been deliberately proposed after careful consideration by County Down Education Committee as essential for the welfare of the young people under its jurisdiction. Those youth centres were to be established at Glastry, Donaghadee, Comber and Ballynahinch.

What is the Minister's attitude? I took a note of his glowing words. He spoke about generosity but that money is not going in any great degree to the rural areas. He talked about "very substantial money" being provided "for this important work". He described the order as one of the steps by which we shall make "increasing provisions" for the young. What has he done in North Down? The Government have said "No" to these youth centres which the County Down Education Committee in its wisdom considered vital for the young people. The Minister should realise that people will look carefully at his words and see what, in fact, the Government are doing.

Despite all the grand talk by the Government about the amount of money that they are providing on youth sports and youth centres in Northern Ireland, these four youth centres in North Down are still way down in the list of the Government's priorities—

Mr. van Straubenzee indicated dissent.

Mr. Kilfedder

The Minister denies that, but I have his letter indicating that there is a list of priorities, that these youth centres to which I have referred must take their place, and that they are certainly not top of the list. I go no further, but I think in his letter he places them low down on the Government's list of priorities. Their position in the list of priorities is not tested by merit or need but by other tests.

The social needs legislation and youth and welfare schemes are meant to provide benefits for all young people in Northern Ireland. But, in practice, it is those areas where troops have been stoned, spat upon and sworn at which benefit most. Is it any wonder that the law-abiding taxpayer becomes angry when he sees riot and commotion rewarded and peaceful communities put at a disadvantage?

There is a grave need for sports and youth centres in North Down. More and more young people in my constituency are getting into trouble with the police. They are not getting into political trouble, or stoning the police and soldiers, but they are getting mixed up in ordinary crimes. Often, they go round in gangs because they have not the facilities which would take them off the streets and allow them to let off steam in a reasonable way. It might be interesting some day to get the figures of young people in North Down who in the past few years have been convicted of ordinary crime.

Writing to me on one occasion, the Minister pointed out that public swimming pools have been provided in Bangor and Newtownards. But they have existed now for a few years. More facilities for sport should be provided both in Bangor and in Newtownards. Facilities there at present are inadequate for a rapidly growing population. There is a crying need for sports and youth centres in the area between Saintfield and Hillsborough, right across to Newtownards and down to Comber and Ballygowan. People there need—

Mr. McManus

The hon. Gentleman wants all the money.

Mr. Kilfedder

That is not true. What I demand on behalf of my constituents is a fair share of the money. That is not unreasonable. I will fight for my con- stituents' rights. I should like to see the Minister publish, assuming that he cannot give details tonight, just how much money has been allocated to sports and recreational facilities and centres for young people throughout the various constituencies in Northern Ireland. Then we shall find out just how much money has gone to certain areas. That will be the test. That does not take into account the splendid work which the Army has been doing in Republican areas, trying to provide facilities for young people who from time to time respond by stoning them. But if I went off on that tangent I would soon be called to order.

In the Ards area in my constituency, an area of scattered villages, we need a small public swimming pool at Kircubbin. Otherwise, the young people have to go Newtownards, with all the danger of getting into trouble there.

Then there is the extension scheme which was proposed for Glastry Secondary School, which is a central area in the Ards and would provide facilities not only for the pupils of that school but for those from other schools, for Roman Catholics as well as for Protestants, a youth club which would benefit the area. I regret that my hon. Friend, in his reply to what I regarded as my reasonable request on behalf of my constituents in the Ards area, said that this was not possible.

It is interesting to note the history of the Glastry Secondary School extension scheme. It was originally a three-part scheme consisting of an extension to the school proper to cover the raising of the school leaving age, and the addition of a youth wing and a learner swimming pool. But, because of financial restrictions at the time, I think in 1968, the school was not allowed to proceed with the scheme, except for the extension. The other two proposals were put back. Although the extension was proceeded with, a further extension is now needed.

This is an example of what the people in the rural areas throughout Northern Ireland have to put up with. I give this example because it is from my own experience. I have been pressing for more youth centres for a long time, but I have got absolutely nowhere with the Ministry of Education and my hon. Friend. Much as we welcome his charming words, they are no comfort for the mothers and fathers of young people who get into trouble and are sentenced to periods of detention or borstal training. His words are no comfort to these convicted young people who are perhaps then on the slippery slope downwards into greater trouble, causing greater expense to the nation.

11.18 p.m.

Mr. James Molyneaux (Antrim, South)

Had my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis) been well enough to be in the Chamber, I might have asked whether the Minister could stretch this measure to permit some assistance to be given to the drumming clubs which flourish in that county. Could some assistance be given to ease the burden of rates of buildings other than schools used in part by youth organisations?

The widespread use of the motor car has altered the social pattern throughout the countryside. As a result, village halls and parochial halls are finding it difficult to keep going, because their letting value has dropped alarmingly, to a point at which they ceased to be self-supporting. I know that in certain circumstances various forms of grant are given, but might it be possible to provide assistance rather more in keeping with the sums of money that the House is discussing?

Like other hon. Members, I welcome the ambitious plans for sports centres. But, as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) rightly said, they will be mainly sited in towns —fairly sizeable towns at that. They need to be supplemented by much smaller centres, if necessary improvised and adapted centres in villages and scattered communities.

Will there be enough flexibility in the scheme to permit assistance to be given to the provision of facilities for mentally-handicapped children? I think, for example, of the swimming pool at Mucka-more Abbey, which was provided by voluntary effort and subscription. It cost about £50,000, and the Ministry of Health and Social Services, the Hospitals Authority and the Ministry of Education found it impossible to contribute from public funds. Could that kind of deserving case be included in future, without strings attached? All involved in looking after the welfare of mentally- and physically-handicapped children would welcome that.

11.22 p.m.

Mr. van Straubenzee

With the leave of the House, I should like to do my best to answer, in the time that the procedures of the House allow, the many points raised in the debate. I must not be tempted to go into the wider questions of those procedures. I will simply say that a good reason for having the White Paper is to move on from them. We all hope that after consultation, and upon the terms of the White Paper, there will be an Assembly and an Executive, so that we can return to some form of normality. I am not trying to uphold it as being other than an interim process.

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) for his general welcome for the order. Certainly if I have anything to do with it—and for the moment I suppose that I shall, as it is unlikely that appointments will be made before the Executive is appointed—I shall attempt to be adventurous as well as conservative.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has already heard how I run into difficulties. He heard my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) lambast me for some of the appointments to some of the area boards. The reason is that we have gone outside some of the "establishment" figures to have a certain breadth of appointment and so on. Then I get stick from my hon. Friend for having people who in his view are unacceptable. That means that some of them are adventurous. Time will tell whether they turn out to be the right people. It is appropriate to have some of the established figures, people who have given devoted service, and we shall want carefully to consult the representative bodies concerned, but it will be a great pity if we cannot also go outside them.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) asked "Why two bodies?" The first answer is that the present Youth and Sports Council, to which I pay tribute, has found that in practice it is easier to work in two groups. Secondly, the Sports Council has different functions from the Youth Committee. Thirdly, there is a Sports Council in Britain, and it makes obvious sense for there to be liaison.

My hon. and gallant Friend and hon. Members opposite were a little less than welcoming to the figures I was talking about. I hope that they will work them out in terms of population. If we on this side of the Irish Channel were able to have the same provision, our mouths would water.

My hon. and gallant Friend need have no anxieties about the interim period when the ship makes no way, so to speak. There are interim policies. Long-term plans are being made which will continue after the present bodies have gone out of existence. Nevertheless, I agree with him that it is desirable to get the new machinery working. That was one of the pressing reasons why my right hon. Friend was so anxious to proceed with local government elections.

The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Cyril Smith) probably does not know that I served on the original Youth Service Development Council—the Albemarle Committee—in 1960. I have followed these matters with great interest since then. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not assume that all wisdom about Youth Service matters is concentrated in Rochdale, or even in Lancashire. If he cares to come across the water, where we shall be happy to see him, he will find a great deal of enthusiasm, knowledge and interest in new developments relating to youth, not restricted in any way from the community sense. Time does not permit me to give specific examples in the Northern Ireland context, otherwise I could give some interesting ones.

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that responsibility for the Youth Service is that of the eduaction authorities at present. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has had the chance to appreciate the fundamental nature of the reorganisation of local government in Northern Ireland, at least in relation to education with the five area boards. Under the new area boards it will be possible to pursue the concept the hon. Gentleman has in mind. Far from this being an order for the 1950's, I—as one who has followed these matters closely—can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is very much one for the 1970's as well.

In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North, the order refers to two Houses of Parliament. Apart from anything else, it is in effect an old Stormont Act, boiled up a long time ago. In those days, no one ever thought of an Assembly. One cannot write into an order provision for reports to an Assembly which has not even been elected, let alone set up. If things progress as I am sure that we all hope that they will, and if in time an Executive grows out of that Assembly, it is my belief that education will be one of the subjects transferred. That comes within the terms of the White Paper. This is the kind of subject on which a report is then made to the Assembly. My hon. Friend cannot ask that we put into an order in April provision for reports to a body which has not even been elected. That is the purely technical reason.

Rev. Ian Paisley

The hon. Gentleman is contradicting himself. He is talking in the order about councils which have not be elected, and he is proposing to give them certain powers. Why cannot the order refer to whichever authority is governing Northern Ireland at that time?

Mr. van Straubenzee

The fundamental difference is that these are district councils to be elected under enactments which have been passed and they will have certain powers. The other is an Assembly which one hopes will be elected, but one has no knowledge of what the future holds for it. I hope that there will be ordered progress, but one cannot, in an order like this, write in reports of that nature.

My hon. Friend asked about the Shankill Sports and Leisure Centre. I have had consultations with the Shankill Community Association, and I was impressed by many of those associated with it. This is one of the slower operations. The sum involved is £600,000, so we are not talking about small cash. There are site-aquiring problems, and so on. I am in careful consultation with those concerned and I should like to be able to say that I could make faster progress but my native caution makes me say that I shall make progress at the best speed that I can. There are real difficulties here, and perhaps I can discuss them more fully with my hon. Friend at an appropriate time.

I do not know the details of the centre in North Antrim to which my hon. Friend referred. I believe that there is a centre near Larne which Belfast is acquiring as an outdoor pursuit centre. It may be that that is what my hon. Friend has in mind, but I do not pretend to have full knowledge of all the details.

In the little time left to me to reply I can give only a short answer to the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus). If the hon. Gentleman does his arithmetic and does not limit himself to a capital programme extending over a period of years for the leisure centres, and if he then looks at the recurrent expenditure which is under a different head, he will find that this is a substantial expenditure.

I do not have full knowledge of the centre at Coalisland to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I do not pretend to have that knowledge. There is no reason why a voluntary youth organisation at Coalisland—or anywhere else— should not apply to the Ministry of Education under the Youth and Welfare Training Act. In other words, there is no need for the hon. Gentleman to wait until 1st October, and I hope that that will be of some assistance to him.

I am unrepentant in my attitude to the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder). It seems right, in the light of the situation in Northern Ireland, to put greater emphasis on some of the difficult areas, particularly where these substantial centres are concerned. If we had paid more attention to this in the past, we should not be sitting here tonight attending to this business.

Mr. Kilfedder rose—

Mr. van Straubenzee

My hon. Friend addressed the House for some time and he must allow me some time in which to reply. The answer is that this is a local education authority scheme. I am referring to the one centred on Glastry Secondary School. The local education authority has not put this high on its priority list as a youth centre. That is a factor with which hon. Members are familiar in England and Wales.

There is a proposal for a swimming pool. I have looked at the papers with the greatest care. There is not time tonight to discuss every detail of every scheme, but it is my view that the swimming pool proposal would be far better as a local authority provision than as a school provision. I say that because I am keen to ensure that this substantial investment should be as widely shared as possible and be made available to a large number of people.

Mr. Kilfedder

My hon. Friend has castigated me in his pleasant way, saying that we ought to give priority to the areas where there is trouble. He said that if attention had been paid to these matters in the past we would not now have trouble. Is not he adopting the same blind attitude? Unless provision is made in the other areas to which I have referred they will be the trouble spots of the future.

Mr. van Straubenzee

I am unrepentant. If we examine expenditure on the Youth Service in the past and its progress in Northern Ireland we find that it does not measure up to what has been done in England and Wales. There are some lessons to be learned. I hope that before direct rule is handed over we can say that we shall be able to hand back a good operation. Enthusiasts in this matter are appreciative of the general atmosphere in which they are now working.

The last question came from my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux). He will forgive me, but I cannot help him about derating. That is a matter for the Ministry of Finance, and does not come within the terms of the order. I cannot assist him on that.

I must examine more carefully the wide question of provision for the mentally handicapped, which my hon. Friend mentioned. He knows that this is one of my special concerns, but only in an indirect way would it come within the terms of the order.

Like other hon. Members, I have to work under the constraint of time. I have attempted to answer—perhaps not to the satisfaction of every hon. Member— all the detailed questions that have been raised. I have heard nothing that makes me feel that this is not an order to which the House should give its assent.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Recreation and Youth Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th March, be approved.