HC Deb 05 April 1973 vol 854 cc589-92
3 Mr. Douglas

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on representations he has had from political parties in Northern Ireland regarding the contents of the White Paper, Command Paper No. 5259.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

I have noted the views of Northern Ireland parties to the White Paper on Constitutional Proposals for Northern Ireland, both in their public comments and in representations made direct to me, and welcome the constructive spirit in which most parties have reacted.

Mr. Douglas

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. May I take it from him that these were representations and not negotiations? During any discussions he had with the leaders of political parties in Northern Ireland did he make it plain that people on this side of the Irish Channel would take it very badly if any of our troops were killed or maimed because of people wanting to exceed the terms and conditions of the White Paper?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have not seen all the parties in Northern Ireland. Some are coming to see me next week. I have made it abundantly clear that while I am prepared to listen to representations on the drafting of the constitutional Bill and to clarify any points which may need to be clarified in the White Paper, the Bill will be on the same fundamental basis as the White Paper. I have made that abundantly clear to everyone.

Mr. McMaster

Will my right hon. Friend clarify the passages dealing with internal security? When normality is restored in Northern Ireland and the Army is reduced to garrison strength, what is the Government's intention with respect to the control of the police in the community?

Mr. Whitelaw

We have made our position clear in the White Paper. The paragraph referred to by my hon. Friend says "for the time being". We must rest on that.

On the question concerning the return of normality, two factors must be taken into account—first, a reduction in the Army strength to what it was before the troubles, and, secondly, the clear evidence of a stable form of administration in Northern Ireland. These factors cannot be foreseen at this stage, but I recognise the importance attached to this point. If normality returns, as we all hope it will, certainly further development of powers will be provided for in the constitutional Bill, and that will be of importance.

Mr. McNamara

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the elections for the new Assembly are likely to be held before the Bill embodying the Diplock recommendations is passed by both Houses? If so, he will have to withdraw the regulation under the Special Powers Act banning Republican clubs. Will he at the same time draw a distinction between the Provisional wing of the IRA, which is engaged in combat against Her Majesty's Forces, and those persons who accept some of the political ideas of the Provisional IRA but not its methods? In that way we could get them to stand as candidates at the polls and, I hope, see them rejected by the people of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman's reasonable question raises very wide issues which no doubt will be debated during the proceedings on the "Diplock" Bill.

Concerning the proscribing of the various organisations which we have put into the Bill as it stands, I should clarify one point that the hon. Gentleman has made. He is right to point out that in that Bill Republican clubs, as such, are not proscribed. It is clear that the "Diplock" Bill will not necessarily be through in time—I am coming to answers later which will indicate this—to give effect to that recommendation. If, as I suspect, that is the position, I will indeed, by Order in Council, remove the proscription on Republican clubs in order that they may be put into the position they would be in after the passage of the "Diplock" Bill.

Mr. Kilfedder

Quite apart from clarifying points in the White Paper, in order to clear up some doubt will my right hon. Friend state whether he is prepared to modify any of the views expressed in the White Paper and whether there is any point in political leaders from Northern Ireland making representations to him?

Secondly, in view of his remarks on radio or television a few days ago, does he agree that the democratic principle has been put aside in Northern Ireland regarding heads of Departments?

Mr. Whitelaw

No. I do not think that I have changed my position from that which is set out in the White Paper. It is surely reasonable that if the parties concerned, who wish to see the White Paper work, have points of detail that they want to put forward during the drafting of the Bill, they should be entitled to do so. I should make it clear that the fundamental basis of the White Paper will and must be in the constitutional Bill, but within the limits that we are setting out there are no doubt points of detail which various parties may wish to put before me. Surely that is the normal process which it is right for me to follow.

Mr. Orme

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of us were in Dublin yesterday, discussing the White Paper with members of political parties in the Republic? I came away with the impression that most of them were concerned about the proscribing of Sinn Fein not because of any sympathy but in order to get its supporters to the ballot box to test the issue. Press reports this morning refer to this matter being raised by the Foreign Secretary of the Republic with the Minister yesterday. Is the right hon. Gentleman's mind finally closed on this issue?

Mr. Whitelaw

It would be wrong for any Minister introducing legislation to the House to say that his mind was closed before the legislation had been discussed and passed through the House. I must point out that I took the decision, which I believe was right, not to proscribe the Republican clubs. I believe that many people see that as a sensible decision. Equally, I have great reservations—not in the electoral sphere but outside it—on the problems of proscribing Sinn Fein. There are great technical problems about which I am prepared to argue later. However, I certainly should not come to this House with legislation and say that my mind was closed beforehand.