§
Lords Amendment: No. 183, in page 94, line 11, at end insert new Clause D:
D. Two or more local authorities may make arrangements for defraying any expenditure incurred by one of them in exercising any functions exercisable by both or all of them.
§ Mr. Graham PageI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
This new Clause enables local authorities to make arrangements among them- 1116 selves for defraying expenditure on concurrent functions. The Association of Municipal Corporations is particularly concerned to avoid a situation in which a district is doubly charged for a service, such as swimming pools, if the district provides them within its area but they are also provided by the county elsewhere within the county boundary.
Ideally the association would like a rigid statutory formula which would permit the district to get abatement of the county precept if the district exercised a concurrent function. Such a proposition would, as the AMC recognises, run counter to the philosophy of the reorganisation, that we are creating competent and responsible bodies which can be relied on generally to make their own arrangements with each other. Thus the new Clause conforms with the same principle for which I was arguing in the last debate.
The new Clause goes as far as possible to meet the AMC's concern. It makes clear that local authorities may make arrangements between themselves about the cost of carrying out a concurrent function but it does not dictate the nature of the arrangements in any way. In the case of concurrent functions, it will be up to each authority to decide how to exercise its power. We cannot say that if a district provides a swimming pool it should be let off a certain proportion of the rates or county precept for swimming pools applied elsewhere in the county. It would confuse local government too much if we tried to dictate from the centre. If local authorities choose to make a voluntary arrangement among themselves by contribution, that will be splendid. In this Clause we merely enable local authorities to make arrangements among themselves for defraying expenditure on concurrent functions.
§ Mr. Denis HowellAgain the House is faced with the absurdity of the Government's proposals for two-tier government. A division of responsibility has been put into the Bill in a most illogical manner which will have the most ridiculous repercussions for ratepayers. The Minister has very fairly set out the position, but there is a fear among many district councils and the AMC and others that in the case of a number of services, 1117 particularly museums, parks, recreational facilities, off-street parking and even industrial development, ratepayers in some districts will be asked to pay twice for the service. That is the concern which I express.
The Government have recognised the dilemma which their Bill has produced by supporting Lords Amendment No. 183. Unfortunately they have not made it mandatory. It is permissive; the word "may" appears in it. I wish to illustrate the situation which may well arise. If a district council provides, under the new local government set-up, a sports centre for its citizens, it will pay for it with the appropriate help from the rate support grant. If subsequently the county council says "We want another sports center", perhaps a regional sports centre at the other end of the county, it will be able to precept on the district council even though the citizens living in the district council will not use the centre, which in Devon, for example, may be 50 or 80 miles away. It is clearly a monstrous proposal that the ratepayers should pay twice, once for what they provide themselves and subsequently in respect of the provision made by the county council.
§ Mr. PageIs not that exactly the present position? There is no power in the Secretary of State to direct that there shall be an allowance on the county precept because the district provides something of that sort.
§ Mr. HowellI do not think it has ever arisen, certainly not in the six years during which I was Minister for sport, for the simple reason that we were not then building regional centres, but now we are. Certainly we did not build many swimming pools, I regret to say. We built more than had been built before, but capital for local authority projects was very limited by the capital budget.
This has now become a real problem. Whether or not the Minister was right
§ in saying that this is the present position, we are now looking at the question of local government de novo. We are trying to get it right. If the situation was wrong previously, this is the moment to put it right.
§ If this happens in the range of services which I have mentioned, what fair machinery will be created to put it right? If we do not put it right, there will be a sense of grievance among many ratepayers that they are paying twice. Clearly their grievance must be met.
§ The Minister has gone part of the way to meet the grievance by saying that local authorities may make arrangements. In other words, he is hoping that two local authorities concerned will be reasonable people and will reach a reasonable agreement. However, time and again as we have gone through the Bill we have observed the division of responsibility between a county authority and a district authority, and the Minister has had to write into the Bill provision for the settlement of disputes, because he knows perfectly well that often neighbouring local authorities can adopt the most unreasonable attitudes towards each other. There is no such machinery in this new Clause, and that is what gives rise to great concern on these benches. It is particularly of concern to the Association of Municipal Corporations.
§ We should like the Minister to say that he will make arrangements which will be much more definitive in this matter and see that in no circumstances, where he is dealing with concurrent functions and expenditure, should the ratepayers be imposed upon twice for one set of services. I hope that he can meet us on this. If he cannot I must advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to register in the Division Lobby their dismay at that prospect.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 149, Noes 131.
1121| Division No. 351.] | AYES | [9.45 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Bray, Ronald |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Benyon, W. | Brewis, John |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Berry, Hn. Anthony | Brinton, Sir Tatton |
| Awdry, Daniel | Biggs-Davison, John | Bryan, Sir Paul |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) |
| Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord | Body, Richard | Carlisle, Mark |
| Batsford, Brian | Bossom, Sir Clive | Chapman, Sydney |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Bowden, Andrew | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) |
| Clegg, Walter | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Cooke, Robert | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Redmond, Robert |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick | Hunt, John | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Rees, Peter (Dover) |
| Costain, A. P. | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Crouch, David | Kinsey, J. R. | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Crowder, F. P. | Kirk, Peter | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Dean, Paul | Knox, David | Rost, Peter |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Lamont, Norman | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Dykes, Hugh | Lane, David | St. John Stevas, Norman |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Scott, Nicholas |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | MacArthur, Ian | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Eyre, Reginald | McCrindle, R. A. | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | McLaren, Martin | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Fidler, Michael | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Soref, Harold |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maddan, Martin | Speed, Keith |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Madel, David | Spence, John |
| Fowler, Norman | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Sproat, Iain |
| Fox, Marcus | Mawby, Ray | Stainton, Keith |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Miscampbell, Norman | Stokes, John |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) | Sutcliffe, John |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Gray, Hamish | Moate, Roger | Tebbit, Norman |
| Green, Alan | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Monro, Hector | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Gurden, Harold | Montgomery, Fergus | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | More, Jasper | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Morrison, Charles | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Murton, Oscar | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Hastings, Stephen | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Hawkins, Paul | Osborn, John | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Heseltine, Michael | Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Parkinson, Cecil | ||
| Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Percival, Ian | Younger, Hn. George |
| Holt, Miss Mary | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hordern, Peter | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Mr. Micheal Jopling and |
| Hornby, Richard | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
| Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury) | McGuire, Michael |
| Allen, Scholefield | Golding, John | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Gourlay, Harry | Maclennan, Robert |
| Ashton, Joe | Grant, George (Morpeth) | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Atkinson, Norman | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Bennett, James(Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Bidwell Sydney | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Bishop, E. S. | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Millan, Bruce |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Hardy, Peter | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Milne, Edward |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Heffer, Eric S. | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Horam, John | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Huckfield, Leslie | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Murray, Ronald King |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hunter, Adam | Oswald, Thomas |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Janner, Greville | Paget, R. T. |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Palmer, Arthur |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jeger, Mrs. Lena | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | John, Brynmor | Pendry, Tom |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kaufman, Gerald | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. |
| Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Kelley, Richard | Prescott, John |
| Deakins, Eric | Kerr, Russell | Probert, Arthur |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Kinnock, Neil | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Dempsey, James | Lambie, David | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lamborn, Harry | Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Latham, Arthur | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lawson, George | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor) |
| Ewing, Harry | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Foot, Michael | Lipton, Marcus | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Ford, Ben | Lomas, Kenneth | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Forrester, John | Loughlin, Charles | Silverman, Julius |
| Freeson, Reginald | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Gilbert, Dr. John | McBride, Neil | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Strang, Gavin | Wainwright, Edwin | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Swain, Thomas | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Tinn, James | Wallace, George | |
| Torney, Tom | Watkins, David | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Tuck, Raphael | Weitzman, David | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Varley, Eric G. | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) | Mr. Ernest G. Perry. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to. [Special Entry.]