NORTHERN IRELAND (APPROPRIATION)

HC Deb 23 November 1972 vol 846 cc1712-35

1.51 a.m.

The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell)

I beg to move, That the Appropriation No. 3 (Northern Ireland) Order 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 8th November, be approved. When presenting the Appropriation No. 2 Order to the House, I explained that since the preparation of the Northern Ireland Estimates for 1972–73 there had been pay and price increases along with a greatly expanded cost of compensation and a number of measures designed to assist the economy.

These various factors have predictably combined to require substantially increased expenditure for the year. The autumn supplementary estimates, which form the basis of the order now before hon. Members, total £53¾ million. Although this is a very much larger total than is usual in Northern Ireland, it must be remembered that the original estimates to which we are now making additions were prepared in the late autumn of 1971, since when a great deal has happened.

The supplementary estimates volume has been published and made available to hon. Members, but it may be of help if, even at this late hour, I give a broad indication of the main features.

Pay and price increases represent a total of about £8 million and obviously arise across a large number of votes. The pay increases in the public services reflect pay settlements in Great Britain.

On the law and order front, a further £15½ million is required for compensation, sadly, and £2.4 million for the police and prisons services which are under great pressure. Again, sadly, it is not possible to make accurate forecasts of expenditure on compensation. Quite apart from the unpredictability of destruction, changes in the speed with which claims are dealt have an important bearing on the amounts required and therefore to be appropriated. We have had considerable success in speeding up payments, with the inevitable result that more money is required in the short run. Indeed, it is possible that a further supplementary will be needed in due course to reflect further acceleration in compensation payments since this estimate was prepared.

New economic measures announced during the summer months account for a total of about £20 million. These are measures introduced since or shortly before direct rule commenced. They include the measures that I announced on 27th July—assistance to Harland and Wolff and the acquisition of shares in what was then ICL, now International Engineering Ltd.

Perhaps I might put on record a correction of something that I said on Friday last when I told the House that the IEL shares were purchased under the Industrial Development Act. In fact, the expenditure is covered on the industrial development vote, not under the Industrial Development Act.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds, South)

Would not the vote be granted under the Act? The hon. Gentleman quite properly bothered to make the distinction, but what does the difference add up to?

Mr. Howell

The purchase was made out of money voted for industrial development in Northern Ireland and not out of money voted for a particular scheme arising out of the Industrial Development Act.

The only other substantial category is £4.6 million for supplementary benefits, attendances and family income supplements. This is partly for increased numbers on the register and partly for the upratings which were made in parity with Great Britain.

I have dealt so far with the main categories. I turn now to a small number of separate items to which special attention should be drawn. The sum of £88,000 is included under Class 11(7) for a contribution towards the acquisition of the Girona treasure which was recovered from the sunken Spanish galleon off the coast of Ulster and which now forms such an attractive possession of the Ulster Museum.

The sum of £204,000 is provided under Clause 111(8), for expenses in connection with local government elections. Since the estimate was prepared, the elections have been postponed but no new date has been fixed. However, a large part of the provision will be required this financial year even if the elections do not take place until next year.

The supplementary of £200,000 under Class VI(3) represents an unexpected increase in the cost of brucellosis eradication resulting from increases in both the numbers and the cost of cattle requiring to be slaughtered.

In Class VII(2) almost £140,000 is provided as a grant to the Finance Corporation to meet administrative expenses. The money used by the Corporation to assist industry is made available as loans to the Corporation, not as grants.

Finally, I should make it clear that in the normal pattern of things a further spring supplementary estimate for Northern Ireland will be required before the end of the financial year. Work has already started on preparing these estimates, but it will be some time before a figure will be available. Meanwhile, I can fairly say that the figure will be a great deal less than the figure in the autumn supplementaries with which we are now dealing.

I have intentionally been brief in my introduction so as to leave time for discussion of the order. Some questions were raised in our debate on other legislation last Friday which I undertook to try to answer and I will gladly do so if I have the opportunity at the end of our short debate.

1.58 a.m.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds, South)

The order must be seen in the context of the first and second draft appropriation orders. Combined, they give the total Northern Ireland expenditure for the financial year 1972–73. The first order was for nearly £141 million and the second was for nearly £251 million. The amount authorised in this order is nearly £54 million, making a total expenditure of £445 million which, together with the appropriations in aid of 38½ million, make a grand total of £484 million. Account must be taken of taxation raised in the North of Ireland. Last week in Ulster the Prime Minister talked about an expenditure of £200 million by this country.

Those who talk about unification should put their minds to the question of money. Those with the most to say about the principle may be the least concerned about the detail they must eventually face up to. We have had two previous debates on appropriation orders, and debates on an order and a Bill to do with loans. Therefore, most of the points on finance and the economy of Northern Ireland have already been raised.

I wish to refer only to the fire services. The Belfast Fire Brigade is wholly financed by the city rates, and the Northern Ireland Fire Authority is partially financed by contributions from all the local authorities within its territory. It also receives a substantial grant from the Northern Ireland Government, and on that score I hope I am in order in raising this matter on this appropriation debate.

In none of the three appropriation orders can I find specific mention of funds for the fire services, although money comes from the central authority to the fire authority. Under what heading is such expenditure allocated, and what is the value of the grant in aid for the financial year 1972–73?

A Fire Services Bill was going through Stormont at the time of prorogation and had reached a fairly advanced stage. A similar Bill has not yet come before the House, and I understand that extensive revision is needed before it is laid as an order. It would help me with my work for the fire service, in which I have a particular interest, if I could be told when we may expect to debate this matter.

The order—when it comes—will essentially be concerned with organisation. It will amalgamate the Belfast Fire Brigade and the Northern Ireland Fire Authority into an Ulster Fire Authority. I want to keep in order by discussing the financial implications of that reorganisation.

Without considering any improvement to the fire services, the Northern Ireland Government will be financially involved to a greater extent. When introducing the Fire Services Bill in Stormont the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Affairs said: Probably the most important change which the Bill would introduce would be that the new authority's funds would be derived from moneys provided by Parliament. What will be the increase in the Government's expenditure upon this reorganisation of the fire services, and has it been allowed for in these appropriations?

I contend that the fire service in Northern Ireland needs a substantial increase in manpower. In addition to expenditure on reorganisation, extra money will be required for extra staff. The establishment of the Belfast Fire Brigade provides for 310 whole-time men. The Northern Ireland Fire Authority has an establishment of 100 whole-time men and 700 part-time retained men. Most of the whole-time men work a 56-hour week on a three-shift system.

The establishments of the brigades are based on the rate of incidents in normal times, and they were under review before the present situation arose. Yet the Belfast and the Northern Ireland fire brigades have each attended more than 6,000 emergency calls in the past year. Furthermore, many calls subject the men to extreme danger which goes beyond conventional firefighting to include explosions and shootings.

An urgent and substantial increase in the personnel of the fire services is required to bring relief and to allow the men to be given more special leave. I hope that the Minister will ensure that a detailed survey of the realistic manpower requirements of the fire services is conducted, and that he will feel able to announce a significant increase in establishment before the new Ulster Fire Authority comes into operation on 1st April, 1973. It is that date that has prompted me to ask these questions, because it is imminent and the expenditure, I presume, is being considered.

I think I can speak on behalf of us all when I say that I have the highest regard for the men of the Belfast and Northern Ireland fire brigades. I take this opportunity of paying tribute to their outstanding service and courage under exceptional conditions. I think that we should also send our condolences to those injured and otherwise in the performance of their duty.

There are many other questions I was prepared to ask. We have had other financial debates and we all have other means of getting the information. I have raised only the question of the fire services at this time of night and if there are matters on which the hon. Gentleman would care to write to me I should be satisfied. The main point I am concerned about is where the money for the fire services appears in the order, because I understand that the money comes from the central Government. The method I should be glad to learn about at a later date.

2.6 a.m.

Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

At this hour and after a long day it would be tempting simply to say "Let us call it a day and go home." On the other hand, as the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) has pointed out, we are dealing with a fairly substantial appropriation of expenditure on certain public services which one should take the opportunity to discuss. The hon. Gentleman discussed the fire services and paid a tribute to them which we entirely endorse. We are very proud of the work they do.

I think it would be right to take another group of public servants for commendation—the Royal Ulster Constabulary. What is owed to the RUC in the present circumstances of Northern Ireland passes all praise. I wonder whether the House is fully aware of the contribution which the RUC has made over the years to the stability of Northern Ireland. For 50 years the RUC and its auxiliaries served to do the job which now requires almost the entire reserve of the British Army. However, one must look at the last three years to comprehend in full what the RUC has been up against.

One would have imagined that in the tragic history of these last few years not only the morale but the loyalty of the RUC might have been seriously affected but that is not the case. In a document issued by their central committee this year, the members of the RUC said: We shall continue to do our duty to the utmost of our ability in the cause of restoring peace to Northern Ireland. We are deeply conscious of our obligations to the Community and we pledge ourselves to the service of all people. The pledge has been honoured. The figures speak for themselves—28 men dead and 1,991 injured since 1969. If there is any one piece of expenditure in this order which should not be grudged, it is the £1,760,000 additional expenditure on the police.

It would be out of order if I were to attempt to look back to the Hunt Report and the effect of the implementation of that report on the Ulster Constabulary. None the less, I must point out that the RUC was disarmed in the middle of what has turned out to be an appallingly violent revolution. After the disarmament of the RUC and following disbandment of its paramilitary reserve, the violence did not cease. Indeed, the violence continued, escalated, and became worse in every way.

One of the expressed aims of the terrorists has been to kill policemen, and they have not hesitated to do so in the most unpleasant, ruthless and savage way. The consequence is that it has been necessary in certain circumstances to arm police officers with side arms and in some cases with automatic weapons—not all officers or on every occasion, but sufficient to enable them to do their duty.

The extraordinary thing to bear in mind—this is relevant to the question of expenditure—is that conditions which in any other society would be considered extraordinary and abnormal are now the normal conditions in which the RUC works. The difficult and highly dangerous conditions which exist are the normal conditions of work for the RUC.

From 1969 to the end of September, 625 people in Ulster have died, and there have been countless riots, demonstrations and other breaches of the peace. In 1971 there were 1,033 explosions resulting in hundreds of casualties and millions of pounds worth of damage. In the first six months after direct rule, there were 973 explosions alone. In the whole of 1971 there were 437 armed robberies—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu)

Order. I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will confine himself to expenditure in the current year.

Captain Orr

Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am preparing a case to show not only that the expenditure that is proposed in the current year is justified but that there is a very good case for greater expenditure. It is essential to understand that the sort of conditions which in the rest of the kingdom would be thought to be highly abnormal are the normal conditions in which the RUC now works. I am proposing to advance the cause that the RUC should be paid more in accordance with the danger that its members now face.

In order to advance that argument, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I must paint the background of the danger that they face. In 1971 there was a staggering total of 437 armed robberies, and in the first six months of 1972 there were no fewer than 760 armed robberies. These are the normal working conditions of the RUC.

We have all paid tribute to the Army and the difficult job it has to carry out, but the Army is armed and trained to deal with a violent situation of this sort. The RUC members are police who, for the most part, are unarmed but have to work alongside the Army. Surely the House should concern itself with members of the RUC as well, because they are servants of the Crown as much as are members of the Army.

The RUC has suffered 28 dead, and the number of injured is increasing daily. The present total, as I have said, for the whole period is almost 2,000 injured. The combined figure represents about 50 per cent. of the force. If this were projected into terms of the United Kingdom, it would make police casualties of more than 500 dead and 40,000 injured. Can one imagine the impact in the rest of the kingdom if police forces had suffered casualties of that order?

One should bear in mind the injuries suffered by individual members of the force. Case histories could be produced one after another of serious brain damage and of officers losing limbs and being disfigured for life. Of the 551 attacks on police stations, 231 have occurred this year. The police are not safe off duty. Five police homes in Lame were petrol-bombed on 17th October. What does one say to an 18-year-old constable who is shot in the leg four days after leaving training school and the leg has to be amputated?

One could give any number of cases showing what the force has to put up with. There has been intimidation of families; the wives and families of policemen have to suffer appalling anxiety. Many have to live under military guard. As to the simple matter which ordinary human beings have to deal with of insurance of their lives, policemen have had to pay 10 per cent. extra on the premiums to get the same kind of insurance cover as that which is available to others.

There has been a considerable effect on recruitment. I will not go into all the figures, but recruitment is not satisfactory and wastage has been slowly increasing. The RUC is hopelessly undermanned for the kind of job it has to do and for the kind of job it will have to do in future, because if one wants the military commitment reduced one has in the long run to substitute the police. The tragedy is that they are hopelessly overworked.

I turn to the financial provisions. The police have made a pay claim based on the simple proposition that they should have more money because of the conditions under which they work, which are so distinct from the conditions in which police in any other part of the United Kingdom have to work. They claim, with justification, that other public service employees are receiving what amounts to danger money.

The prison officers have been awarded an allowance of £1 per working day to compensate them for the element of extra danger they are facing. That allowance became operative on the date that internment was introduced. It is well-known in Ulster that the allowance was not granted after lengthy negotiations. It was granted simply because the prison officers threatened to strike. Five men have been receiving a special allowance of £2 per week extra since the beginning of the year, and after the so-called ceasefire by the Provisionals earlier in the year an effort was made by the employers' side to withdraw the allowance, without success. The conclusion can only be that the allowances are awarded for abnormally dangerous conditions.

Ambulance crews receive an availability allowance of £2 extra per week because of abnormal working conditions during the civil unrest. They are all overworked, essential, dedicated workers to whom we pay considerable tribute, and I am sure no one begrudges them anything.

All these examples illustrate that there are three principles. The principle of abnormal danger has been established. The employer in each case is a public authority subject to the Government. Money is being paid as compensation or reward for facing additional danger. My argument is that in considering the extra expenditure, surely members of the RUC come under the umbrella of those three principles and are entitled to be rewarded in the same way.

I know that long arguments have gone on in the discussions. I do not want to go into all the details of how pay claims are negotiated, but I understand that the next meeting of the Police Council is to be held in January, 1973. The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Police Federation is of the opinion that throughout the RUC this suggestion that there should be danger money paid and reflected in the pay scale is to be preferred to the proposal of the employers' side, which is that they should receive additional leave by way of compensation.

The idea of additional leave is regarded by the Police Federation as a derisory and ridiculous proposition. There are already arrears of leave due to almost all the members of the force resulting from the job that they have to do and the way that they are over-worked. They say rightly that anything other than a straight pay settlement to meet the abnormal conditions in which they work will be considered derisory and will be damaging to morale.

I agree. Of all the public servants that we have in Ulster facing grave and real personal danger, of all the public servants upon whom Ulster will have to rely for the future, whatever be the result of our discussions today and whatever be the decisions of Governments, the people who will ultimately have to uphold the law are the members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, with their long and proud history.

It is tragic that we should have to discuss these matters in this way on this measure at this time of night, with a practically empty House. But I hope that the message will go out from here that this House is proud of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, is determined to see its members well treated, and will express its gratitude to them in due course in every way that it can.

2.24 a.m.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Walthamstow, East)

I, too, wish to discuss Class III, Appropriation for Police Services, because I remember that recently we approved something similar in another appropriation, and if we are spending £1¾ million more on police services in Ulster it is not unreasonable to ask exactly how the money is being spent.

The weakness of this sort of document is that there is a statement of expenditure simply for police services, without any attempt to fill in the details. In view of that, I think that I am entitled to ask my hon. Friend whether he can fill in some of the details, because I for one have certain misgivings about how the RUC is to be able to fulfil the task which Lord Hunt saw it as having—that of being a civilian police force designed to keep down and ultimately to defeat the crime wave in Northern Ireland.

Yet we have not decided what rôle we want the RUC to play, and the net result has been an unprecedented crime wave in Northern Ireland. There is also the violence. The RUC is trying to do two jobs, and, not unnaturally, it is failing between the two tasks required of it. I should like the Minister to tell me, if not tonight then by letter, how the money will be spent. I should like part of the £1,750,000 to go towards increased pay and towards making the job generally attractive. The money should be spent first on recruiting policy, and that policy should have underlying it a definition of the RUC as we now see it.

The Minister will remember that very recently I asked him a question about the likely establishment of the RUC in 1975, and why the figure of 5,000 men had been selected. He told me honestly that the figure had been selected as being a likely and reasonable figure that could be attained with the present rate of recruiting. That is one way to reach establishment but it cannot be the correct way. Surely the task of the force must be decided, the establishment settled accordingly and then that establishment recruited.

We are talking of an increase of only 803 in the force over the present figure during the next three years. There is some reason to wonder whether an increase of 803 in the RUC will enable it to fulfil the tasks which look like lying ahead of it in the years to come. It would be a brave man who would forecast that by 1975 the incidence of violence in Northern Ireland would have been depleted to a point where the Army could be withdrawn in any large number. Therefore shall we be told that the RUC will try to beat the crime wave and play some part in curbing terrorism, and that the great burden of the security task will fall on the shoulders of British troops? If that was the case, it would be an unsatisfactory answer, because we have a duty, particularly as we are spending these large amounts on the RUC, to define its role. If we do not think it will be able to meet that role we must see whether there is some other way to meet it.

It may be that we shall be looking at the UDR as a means of achieving the additional strength of the internal security forces, and that, instead of seeing the UDR as a military force, we should see it much more as a gendarmerie on the lines of the French system. In France the gendarmerie acts as a country police force. The UDR could be used as valuable assistance to the RUC and could allow it to concentrate its efforts in the cities and the towns.

There is also the question of pay and recruitment. I had hoped that the figure we are being asked to agree tonight would be spent on increasing the salaries of the RUC. The question of danger money has been raised. The figures which have been read out suggest that this force cannot be compared with any other police force in the country. It is running great risks, and these risks must be a deterrent to people wishing to join the force.

What about promotion prospects for Ulster Constabulary policemen? Do they have a bright future to look forward to? Are we considering whether promotion prospects can be improved, and have we sufficiently borne in mind the words to the chief constable, in his report in 1971, that there was a need for more attractive career prospects by way of increased pay and better conditions if the right type of person was to come forward, and his rather sad comment that although there had been a number of people coming forward, 982 had had to be rejected because of poor educational standards? Clearly, something needs to be done, and I suggest that some part of the £1¾ million that we are spending on police services might be spent on a marketing exercise to discover how we can make that force attractive to the community in Northern Ireland.

May I now ask whether some part of the proposed £8,000 for secret services is to be spent on a special force to tackle the wave of political assassinations which have become such a daily feature of life in Northern Ireland? They seem to echo the gangland killings in America before the war. Lord Hunt in his report thought that more inter-communication between the RUC and the police forces of England and Wales would be helpful. Has Scotland Yard been asked to assist in discovering how these assassinations are occurring? Is any of the money to be spent on a special squad to look into the problem? I should be grateful for any answers that my hon. Friend can give tonight.

2.32 a.m.

Mr. Rafton Pounder (Belfast, South)

I, too, propose to concentrate the bulk of my remarks on the RUC, but before doing so I should like to join in the tributes paid by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) to the fire and ambulance services in Northern Ireland. Having had some experience during the emergency of the speed, effectiveness and efficiency of those two institutions, I cannot praise them too highly.

Reverting to the expenditure envisaged on the RUC, and accepting that morale and increased recruitment are the two most urgent subjects to be tackled, I wonder how much can be done by means of monetary inducements. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), by inference, spoke in terms of danger money, and I accept that there is an overriding case for it in view of the exceptional and emergency situation.

As I understand it—perhaps my hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong—overtime rates operate only to a certain level in the force, to either inspector or chief inspector. Above that rank no overtime is paid or is payable. That seems to be an unreasonable distinction, because overtime is overtime. In an emergency the work has to be done, and it seems unreasonable that senior officers appear to be penalised.

Obviously, finance can play a part in encouraging recruitment, and it can play a part, therefore, in building the RUC of the future which, I believe, all hon. Members regard as essential. But it should be remembered—I blame neither my hon. Friend the Minister of State nor any of his ministerial colleagues—that uncertainties about the future of the RUC still linger, and recruitment is for that reason inevitably adversely affected.

The other side of the coin is resignations, to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred. In terms of English police forces, it may seem no great matter that only 24 men with under five years' service resigned in 1969. But by 1971 the figure had climbed to 68, and in the first half of this year it was 44. Small figures, perhaps, but set against recruitment—in any case, the man with less than five years' service is not the sort of person one expects to leave the force—they represent, in a sense, abnormal wastage. They do not entirely nullify the recruitment figures, but they reduce substantially the overall increase in the force. I do not know the reasons for the resignations; they may well have been monetary in part, with better jobs being offered outside.

I yield to no man in my respect and admiration for the courage and devotion to duty of the RUC, and, indeed, of the whole security forces. The tragedy—one does not want to go into history on an occasion such as this—is that there was an infamous report produced two or three years ago which knocked the heart out of the RUC, and it is that heart which must be restored.

My hon. and gallant Friend spoke of the life assurance loading of 10 per cent. What he did not say is that the average policeman is jolly lucky if he gets life assurance cover at all, let alone at a loading. I consider that it would be a proper charge on public funds to make a contribution towards that loading, which arises not from the policeman's state of health but from the ghastly situation in which he has to work at this time.

Where life assurance is totally refused, there are certain organisations which run their own form of insurance, and I wonder whether it would be feasible for that method to be adopted for the RUC.

Captain Orr

I think that the Police Federation itself would prefer, instead of that method of meeting the difficulty, that it be reflected straight in the pay.

Mr. Pounder

Certainly. Either way, we agree that some financial assistance should be given.

Captain Orr

Yes.

Mr. Pounder

I come now to the problem of house property. I am sorry to seem always to be harking back to house property, but I know from experience—I should declare my interest in a building society—that where we have made loans to policemen and for one reason or another they have wished to move house, the disposal of the property at a reasonable price has presented a great problem.

Here again, assistance could be given over a short time, for the period of the emergency. We are not speaking here of the natural depression of house prices generally, which, heaven knows, is bad enough—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to bring himself more closely to the order.

Mr. Pounder

With respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thought that I was in order, because I was about to plead for assistance from the Appropriation Fund for the extra short-fall in the sale of a policeman's property over and above that experienced in the generally depressed state of the market. The policeman suffers, one might say, a secondary loss by virtue of his occupation.

I come now to the state of the RUC reserve, and I have three questions to put. What is the present state of recruitment to the reserve force? What is the scope of the duties which its members are asked to undertake? What plans have the Government for improving the pay structure and thereby improving recruitment to the reserve force?

2.40 a.m.

Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

I want to add a word to what my hon. Friends have said already in pleading the particular case of the police service in Northern Ireland. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister of State to bear in mind that it is not only the appropriations which we are considering tonight—there is a large sum involved; over £53½ million—but the morale of the police, which has been affected by their reduced position in Northern Ireland.

As a result of the Hunt Committee's report we have seen our police disarmed and the other body—the B Specials, who assisted them in performing special duties—disbanded, so that the burden has had to be shared by the Army and the police; we have also seen—as a result of the political initiative taken in March—the control of the police taken away from Stormont and their status reduced.

I want my hon. Friend to pay a little attention to this aspect of the matter. Unless some assurance can be given that the control of our police will be restored to whatever body is set up in Northern Ireland when the White Paper is published, the wastage to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Capt. Orr) referred will continue, and perhaps even increase. In other words, I feel that, besides the appropriation of £1,760,000 for the police service which we are considering, the Government should pay some attention to the long-term situation by transferring, as far as possible—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon Member is not dealing with the order at all.

Mr. McMaster

I hope that I shall keep in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would not seek to go any further in dealing with this problem of the police service than anyone would in an appropriation debate on the general affairs of this country. It must be remembered that this is an opportunity to debate the police service in this House—a service which is now under the control of this Chamber—a matter which may not in other circumstances be debated. The Parliament which normally debates these affairs has been suspended as the result of the action of this Government. I hope that I may be allowed briefly to deal with matters relating to the police service, which is covered by the Vote. I know that the hour is late. I had hoped that this debate, which is concerned with matters of such importance for Northern Ireland, could have been taken at a more convenient hour. We have already had an exhausting debate on other important Northern Ireland matters.

I want to say a few words on this most important matter, which is relative to this Vote. I hope that the sums involved will be increased dramatically if it is not the intention of the Government to give some indication to the police that will otherwise restore their morale. I hope that some contribution will be made to attract the numbers of people needed for the police service and also to cut down the wastage, which has been increasing substantially over the last three years in Northern Ireland.

The wastage figures have mounted from 24 men with less than five years' service in 1969 to 37 men in 1970, 68 men in 1971, and already, in the first half of this year, about 44 men. That shows a threefold increase in wastage in three years. We have already heard how the services of these men are required to meet the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. I look to a transfer from the Army to the police of some of the functions being performed by the Army and a build-up of the police force to enable it to take over such functions.

Class IV in the statutory instrument deals with substantial appropriations for the hospital services in Northern Ireland. As the amounts covered run into many millions of pounds, the Minister should say a little more about the provision being made for the hospital service and the manner in which the money will be spent. We are very proud of the advanced work which our major and minor hospitals do in Northern Ireland, but more money is needed to enable them not only to meet the present emergencies but to improve the valuable service which they are rendering to the community.

Class V deals with the question of expenditure on education. I do not need to remind the House of the terrible effects which the past three years of disturbances have had on the children of Northern Ireland. The future lies with the children. I should like to have an assurance from my hon. Friend that the money spent will be adequate to provide for the education and rehabilitation of the children, particularly of the younger children in the primary schools who have been specially affected by the disturbances.

I should like more money to be spent on nursery schools and on children whose parents go out to work and who have been victims of the rioting which I have seen in my constituency and which has occurred throughout Northern Ireland. Because of the emergency, their need is even greater than that of children in the rest of the United Kingdom. The children must be taken off the streets and provided with the type of educational guidance which will help to turn them into good citizens, despite all the problems which, unfortunately, have arisen in the past three years.

I could deal with the order at greater length, but I shall restrain myself because of the hour. However, I echo the complaint that we should be compelled at this late hour, when hon. Members are weary, to deal with such important matters as this order. With the suspension of Stormont, this is the only assembly in which they can be considered. I know that other of my hon. Friends would have liked to deal with the subject of agriculture, but, unfortunately, they have not been able to do so.

I refer briefly to Class VII, which covers the Ministry of Commerce and the question of industrial development. It has been frequently acknowledged in Northern Ireland debates that this goes to the heart of our problems in Ulster. High unemployment has been one of the root causes of the disturbances, but I wonder whether adequate provision is being made for rehabilitating the province when the violence ends, which I hope will be soon.

The sums covered in the Class VII Vote amount to between £14 million and £15 million. Can my hon. Friend say something about how that money is being spent? How much of it is being allocated to erecting advance factories, attracting new industry to Ulster from abroad? How much is being provided for existing factories that seek to expand, and how much is being provided to those traders whose businesses have been so badly affected by the disturbances of the past three years? I have come across businesses in my constituency which have suffered directly as a result of their customers' reducing and spreading their orders, perhaps understandably. The customers feel that in the prevailing circumstances it is unwise to have all their eggs in one basket. I have seen some of the letters explaining that they are now seeking alternative sources of supply in case the factories are damaged and they are left without an adequate alternative to make up for the loss of the goods. How far is that being taken into account?

What steps are the Government taking through the Class VII Vote to make good the loss so that companies will not be forced to go out of business and thus add to our problems in Northern Ireland?

2.51 a.m.

Mr. David Howell

I am grateful to hon. Members for their constructive comments, at what is admittedly a late hour, on the funds to be appropriated under the order. I shall answer as many of the questions as I can.

I start with the point on which the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) laid great emphasis, concerning the fire services. I must begin by immediately echoing the high regard he expressed for the Belfast fire brigade and other fire brigades throughout Northern Ireland for the magnificent and brave work they do in appallingly difficult circumstances. That is something on which we are all heartily agreed. Although the fire services are not specifically mentioned, they come under item No. 8 within Class III. That is where the grant-in-aid for the Northern Ireland fire authority comes. The amount for 1972–73, the current financial year, totals £311,500. As a matter of statistical precision, £12,000 of that is included in the current Supplementary Estimate. This is not the authority's total expenditure, but just the grant element.

The hon. Gentleman asked about reorganisation of the fire service and its financial implications. Reorganisation will not come within the present financial year. Therefore, any grant to the new authority will not figure in the Estimates until 1973–74.

I hope that is clear to the hon. Gentleman. If there are points he would like me to expand on, I shall gladly do so in correspondence.

Captain Orr

Has my right hon. Friend any information on when the fire services order might come?

Mr. Howell

I cannot give my hon. and gallant Friend a precise date. It is going forward. It is one of the aspects of Macrory reform that my hon. and gallant Friend knows about. I shall write to both the hon. Member for Leeds, South and my hon. and gallant Friend if I can ascertain a precise date. As soon as we know it we shall try to let hon. Members know.

I turn to the subject of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which occupied much of the rest of the debate, very understandably, as it is an immensely important aspect of life in Northern Ireland. Again, no one need have the slightest hesitation in joining in the tribute and high praise that must be paid to the Royal Ulster Constabulary which does magnificent work in appalling and often frightening circumstances. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House recognise the great difficulties under which that force operates.

This is not the time, at this late hour, to go into some aspects of the history of what has and has not been done and past policy regarding the RUC, but I should like to try to deal with some of the specific questions which have been put about the police.

My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson) asked whether he could have more details of what the £1¾ million represented. In the autumn Supplementary Estimates he will find the details showing that the £1¾ million arises from police overtime. There is an additional £150,000 which does not appear in the appropriations, because the money is already appropriated, for travelling and subsistence expenses. Strictly speaking, it is probably true that, although the appropriations in the Estimates do not always match, the bulk of the money being appropriated is for police overtime, reflecting in part—one can argue this either way—the considerable burden which falls upon the RUC.

I cannot comment in detail on additional claims for pay. The Royal Ulster Constabulary shared with other police forces of the United Kingdom the recent pay increase which preceded the freeze. I ought to say, and, indeed, must say, that any further changes in pay levels would have to be looked at in the context of the pay freeze which now prevails. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Capt. Orr) pointed out the particular conditions under which the police have to operate. However, like other police forces, they have had a pay increase, and we would have to judge any changes in pay levels within the context of the pay freeze. We all recognise some of the horrific and heavy pressures under which the Royal Ulster Constabulary has to operate.

On recruitment and the future expansion of the force, the general aim, which I am sure is widely shared, is to expand and strengthen the police force and, looking forward to a happier future in Northern Ireland, to enable the necessary normal police services of upholding law and order to be sustained by an effective and fully manned force, which we would all like to see.

Establishment is more a reflection than a cause of the situation. Establishment is the figure upon which is based the indent for the necessary equipment, the building of barracks, and so on. The important figure is the actual recruitment which must be and is now happily moving upwards. There has been an upturn after a not very encouraging period, and that figure must continue to go up. Of course, as that goes up, naturally having obtained more recruits into the police forces, more barracks and a larger establishment becomes justified. I cannot give a precise target for the number in the Royal Ulster Constabulary two, three, or four years from now, and such targets are not useful. The aim is to expand the force. That is why we have had a major advertising campaign. The generally recognised and desired aim is the development of the force, bearing in mind that there are always problems of recruitment, of maintaining standards, and of finding people of the right quality willing to serve.

I cannot give much detail about promotion prospects, except to say that in an expanding force promotion prospects increase. I believe that the members of the force recognise that the prospects for promotion are good, that the service will be maintained and strengthened, and that there will be plenty of room for talent with the opportunity of a good career.

Overtime in the police does not extend into the senior management levels. This applies to forces throughout the United Kingdom and throughout all levels of senior management. Above certain levels, management responsibility is supposed to be exercised without resort to overtime.

I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Pounder) giving precise figures of the RUC reserve. The one success story has been the expansion of the intake of women, which is widely welcomed.

The question of the secret service vote has been raised again. It will not surprise hon. Members to learn that my answer will on this occasion be no more helpful than it has been in the past. I do not wish to be unhelpful, but it would be inexpedient in the public interest to disclose the purpose for which the money is required.

I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) on the subject of our hospital expansion and equipment programme.

I share in the recognition which has been expressed of the great importance of nursery school expansion. My noble Friend the Minister of State has been able recently to announce an encouraging expansion in this field. It is of the greatest importance that we should expand these facilities thus enabling children to grow up and live better and less divided lives in the community.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East mentioned industrial development. He has an unerring skill in moving to the point in our debates where the name of Harland and Wolff occurs. He is right in guessing that within these figures are the current payments which are part of the programme of assistance to Harland and Wolff. Also included are payments to the Industrial Development Board for the purchase of shares of International Engineering Limited, and payments related to new factories, capital inducements to firms, improved security, better surroundings, expansion, new investment, and so on.

I am tempted, as it is a matter to which I give a great deal of time, to go into our industrial development policy, but the hour is uncivilised. The situation is not a discouraging one. Ulster industry has held up with remarkable resilience. Ulster business has proved to be well worth backing and output is continuing to rise. We have moved forward to a major programme of new factories, particularly in high unemployment areas. Our training programmes are expanding. There has been a continuing interest from overseas investors, despite the troubles.

To end on an optimistic note, we have had news that once again the unemployment figures in Northern Ireland are falling. On that cheerful note, I ask the House to approve the order.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Appropriation No. 3 (Northern Ireland) Order 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 8th November, be approved.