HC Deb 22 November 1972 vol 846 cc1262-8
5. Mr. James Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many private tenants qualify for a rent allowance.

The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. George Younger)

Some 150,000 tenants of privately-owned unfurnished accommodation in Scotland will come within the scope of the scheme for rent allowances, but how many of them will qualify for allowances cannot be estimated because particulars of rent levels and the income of tenants are not available.

Mr. Hamilton

Bearing in mind the freeze imposed by the Government, may we have an assurance that the tenants who are eligible will receive the rent allowance? As the Minister is aware from correspondence I have had with him, some landlords are now endeavouring to increase their rents by 300 per cent., and in two cases by 1,000 per cent. That is because of the Act which is now on the Statute Book. Is the Minister now prepared to reconsider the situation and to have the Act put in a freeze until such time as the country gets on its feet again?

Mr. Younger

If increases of that sort are being imposed on tenants, they are under the previous Government's Act and not under the present Government's Act. The law of the land states that rent allowances will be brought in on 1st January, and it is certainly my intention that the law of the land should be carried out and that all private tenants should be eligible for this rent allowance from 1st January. This is a much-needed reform and it is a pity that it was not introduced a long time ago.

Mr. MacArthur

May we have a positive assurance that no private tenant anywhere in Scotland will lose any of this allowance because his local authority is defying the Act?

Mr. Younger

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I can only say that if any local authorities are thinking of defying the Act and not introducing rent allowances, they will cause considerable hardship to many of the inhabitants in their areas and will not lightly be forgiven. I hope they will think very carefully about that.

Dr. Dickson Mahon

Does the figure of 150,000 tenants include the 90,000 covered in the Act and who are to be brought into the fair rents system, or were to be brought into it, in three sections, or is 150,000 the entire total? Secondly, when will the Minister introduce the Bill to amend the fair rent Act and bring it into line with the recommendations made by the previous committees and through correspondence he has had?

Mr. Younger

I am not quite sure of the point to which the hon. Gentleman was referring latterly about bringing it into line. A Bill is due to be introduced to extend rent allowances to furnished accommodation as well as unfurnished accommodation. In reply to the hon. Gentleman's first point, we estimate—it can only be an estimate—that about 150,000 tenants will qualify for rent allowance, but if there should be more the money is available and I hope that they will get it.

9. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that new town rents are substantially in excess of average council rents, he will now instruct the development corporations to freeze existing rents to the end of 1974.

Mr. Younger

No, Sir. The higher average house rents in the new towns reflect both the relatively modern nature of the housing stock in these towns and their greater amenity and better environment.

Mr. Hamilton

The Under-Secretary must know that that is not right and that there are modern council houses comparable to the modern houses in new towns where the rents are completely different. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that in some new towns in Scotland rents are more than double the average council rents in Scotland? In those circumstances, ought not the tenants to have the kind of preferential treatment suggested in the Question?

Mr. Younger

The average rents in new towns are in general higher than the average rent in local authorities. This reflects, in exactly the same way as it did under the Labour Government, the different nature of the housing, the better amenity standard and the newer nature of the house. All new town tenants are fully protected against hardship by the national rent rebate scheme, which means that nobody will be expected to pay a rent he cannot afford.

Mr. Edward Taylor

Is not the wide differential which now exists the direct result of the Labour Government's forcing new towns and the Scottish Special Housing Association to charge higher rents while leaving local authorities to charge what rents they liked?

Mr. Younger

I well remember what my hon. Friend said at the time, when he came out strongly against that policy. One of the effects of the new Housing Finance Act is to narrow the gap in future years between new towns and the local authorities. As all tenants are protected by rent rebate schemes, it is certain that they will all be protected from any hardship.

Mr. Lambie

is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Irvine new town rent levels are two and a half times the average rent in Scotland? Are not these tenants entitled to protection against further increases if wage rates are to be frozen?

Mr. Younger

It very much depends upon whether one takes the view that new town rents are too high or local authority rents are too low. This is exactly the same policy as was followed by the Labour Government, as the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) knows full well.

16. Mr. Edward Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to ensure that all tenants who are or will be entitled to rent rebates or rent allowances under the Housing Act actually receive them.

Mr. Younger

My right hon. Friend arranged for the introduction of the rent rebate scheme by 1st October to be extensively publicised in the Press, on television and by leaflets. The introduction of rent allowances by 1st January will be similarly publicised. In addition, local authorities are required to publicise the rent rebate and allowance schemes, and landlords are required to make details of the rent allowance scheme available to private tenants.

Mr. Taylor

Has my hon. Friend noted from details of the cases which I have sent him that some of my constituents are, over a five-year period, facing rent increases of as much as 500 per cent. as a result of the Act introduced by the Labour Government in 1969? Would it not be shameful if the Labour-controlled Glasgow Corporation were to deprive these tenants who cannot afford the increases of the rent allowances provided under our Act?

Mr. Younger

I fully agree with my hon. Friend and I wish to make clear, endorsing what he has said, that any such increases as he now mentions are taking place under the Act passed by the last Labour Government, in which no provision whatever was made for rent allowances for those who could not afford to pay. It would be a crying shame if, added to that, the rent allowances were not made available from 1st January, as I very much hope they will be.

Mr. Russell Johnston

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that one matter which is causing considerable concern is the sheer complexity of the rent allowance form, which many people, especially older people, find very difficult to fill in? Will he give serious thought to instructing local authorities, particularly some of the larger authorities, to consider making special provision to assist people in the filling up of these forms?

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that matter. We had fairly extensive debate about it on the Report stage of the Bill, when hon. Members on both sides, including my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor), made some helpful suggestions. We thought we had made the form reasonably simple, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that rent officers are careful to do all they can to help people. However, if he has any specific cases which he would like to put to me, I shall be glad to do my best to help in what I know is a difficult problem.

28. Mr. Doig

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the average rent charged in Dundee by the Dundee Corporation per house per week, and by how much this fell short of the figure necessary under the terms of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act.

Mr. Younger

The average annual standard rent at 28th November, 1971, was £87.13. My right hon. Friend is considering certain information already provided to him by the corporation about its current position in relation to the 1972 Act.

Mr. Doig

Is the Minister aware that Dundee Corporation has already agreed to the increases up to the maximum permitted under the Act? It has already agreed to apply the rebate scheme retrospectively from 1st October. Is he aware that the people in Dundee consider that they are being very badly treated compared with Edinburgh, which is in a similar situation?

Mr. Younger

I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but the situation in Dundee is complex and my right hon. Friend is considering it in the light of extra information given to him by the corporation.

29. Mr. MacArthur

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many council tenants will pay the same or less in rent following the introduction of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act.

Mr. Younger

Many council tenants should pay the same rent or less allowing for rebates, but I do not have comprehensive information about their numbers.

Mr. MacArthur

In other words are not those local authorities which are defying the Act denying help to many of their tenants? Can my hon. Friend give any examples to show how much less tenants should be paying now than previously?

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I could give many examples, but perhaps I may instance a family with four children living in Glasgow. With a gross income of £25 a week, and occupying a house with a standard rent of £2, they would pay only 81p under the Act but they are paying £1.22 under the Glasgow scheme. If the same family lived in Airdrie it would have paid the full standard rent of £2 before implementation of the Act, because there is no rebate scheme there, but under the Act they will now pay a rebated rent of only 81p.

Mr. Strang

Is the Minister aware that the continued use of these highly selective statistics, which has marked the whole campaign on the legislation, has debased the language of government in Scotland? Is he aware that thousands of council tenants in Edinburgh, many of them pensioners, had their rents increased by £1 a week this week? Does he not think that rather than trying to provoke the non-implementing authorities into submission, thus causing all the bitterness and industrial confrontation that would ensue, it would be far better to use the freeze as an excuse for taking a new initiative to reach a compromise with those authorities?

Mr. Younger

These statistics are facts, and they are not selective facts of those benefiting from the reductions. The hon. Gentleman must face the fact that the Act has been designed to prevent hardship. It is time he realised that.

Mr. Ross

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how many people will pay more rent? How many people in, say, the burgh or Ayr. in the hon. Gentleman's own constituency, who were receiving rent rebates will still pay a higher rent now that the burgh has changed over to the Government rent rebate system?

Mr. Younger

The right hon. Gentleman should update his figures, following the improvement in the needs allowances. I have not the precise figure to answer his question on how many people will pay more in rent, but no one will pay more if he cannot afford it. That is the whole point of the rent rebate scheme, which the right hon. Gentleman should realise.