HC Deb 22 November 1972 vol 846 cc1269-72
7. Mr. Douglas

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he has sent to Alva Town Council regarding its letter on revenues from North Sea oil.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my reply to the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Donald Stewart) on 9th November, which indicated the terms of the replies sent to the local authorities including Alva Town Council which had made representations to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on this subject.—[Vol. 845, c. 246.]

Mr. Douglas

Will the Secretary of State concede that he has given a figure for revenues available to the Government from North Sea finds? If he has a figure for revenues he must have a figure for total supply from the fields and, therefore, for the total cost of oil. In view of all the circumstances, would it not be better for the right hon. Gentleman to produce a White Paper so that the House can be made aware of all the details it needs to ascertain the extent of these finds and their effect on the Scottish and United Kingdom economies?

Mr. Campbell

I think that the hon. Gentleman, who has followed these matters more closely than most, knows that we have made an estimate for 1980. We cannot go beyond that. There are large areas of the sea-bed, particularly round the West, which have not yet been explored. Given the information available now, and on the basis of the present level of prices and other factors, we have made a rough estimate of the total revenue in rents and royalties in 1980. That is what we have been able to do in an effort to supply the House and the general public with as much information as we can. I have great hopes that much more oil will be discovered in the years to come and that beyond 1980 there may well be considerably more than we now estimate.

Mr. Brewis

May I support the request made by the hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas) for more information about Scottish oil? When will the first oil be landed in Scotland and when will any royalties become payable?

Mr. Campbell

The first company to have made its plans expects the first oil to be pumped ashore in two years' time. That will be when the royalties from the oil as opposed to gas from the North Sea would start to be paid.

Dr. Miller

May I commend the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) for referring to these finds as Scottish oil and not by the general term of North Sea oil? Is the Secretary of State prepared to recommend to his Cabinet colleagues that the whole question of Scottish oil be placed under public ownership and control?

Mr. Campbell

I noted that the Labour Party conference passed a resolution to the effect that the oil industry should be nationalised. That is a very gloomy outlook for those whose jobs depend upon the work on the oil rigs now and the oil servicing and all the shore-based installations and other work which is about to start.

Mr. Ross

The Secretary of State should not need to be reminded that the oil is already nationalised, thanks to the Continental Shelf Act passed by a Conservative Government; so he should not burke the question of nationalisation. Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question about the desirability of having a White Paper on this whole subject? Further, would it not be a good idea for the whole subject to be referred to the Scottish Special Select Committee so that we can get down to all the facts available and make projections about the importance of the subject to Scotland?

Mr. Campbell

I think that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Dr. Miller) was referring to nationalisation of the industry, not of the oil itself. The Labour Party conference appears to have endorsed the idea of nationalising the whole industry. That is a poor lookout for all those whose jobs depend on it in the future.

Mr. Ross

Will the Secretary of State now answer my question?

Mr. Campbell

The question of Select Committees is not for me. We are, through the usual channels, making some proposals on the subject of a debate.

Mr. Ross

I said nothing about a debate. For a debate to be useful we should have the right information. Will the Secretary of State reconsider his answer about the publication of a White Paper on this whole subject and the Government's attitude to it? Then a debate would be realistic.

Mr. Campbell

When this question has arisen before I have said that I am prepared to consider the publication of a White Paper, but it affects other Ministries. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is the Minister most concerned. The right hon. Member has put this point before and I have answered it before.

11. Mr. David Steel

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will seek to set up a working party of industrialists, economists and planning specialists to consider how best Scotland could benefit from oil revenues.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I do not think that a special working party is necessary. North Sea oil developments are already bringing major benefits in terms of employment. As a result of Government decisions, Scotland is also getting an accelerated programme of investment in roads, harbours and houses in advance of oil from the Scottish part of the Continental Shelf starting to flow.

Mr. Steel

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is now a widespread view in Scotland, among members of all parties and of none, that Scotland is not by any means certain to get the best possible yield out of the natural oil that has been discovered? In view of this fact, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that some machinery independent of the Government, such as I have suggested in the Question, could properly be set up to consider what improvements could be made and the benefits that Scotland could get from the oil?

Mr. Campbell

The setting up of new machinery and new bodies does not necessarily solve problems. We have none the less set up the Standing Conference. This has met a particular need of many of those concerned, and the new Scottish Industrial Development Office will have a particular task in helping the oil industry in giving advice and taking initiatives. This is another body that has been set up this year.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that one of the problems concerning oil revenues is that many of the resources seem likely to flow to American firms—fabricators and others—which have been encouraged to establish themselves in Scotland with the benefit of grants to do things they would have done in any case, and that those grants have been encouraged by bodies like the Scottish Council and the STUC which the hon. Gentleman wishes to encourage my right hon. Friend to consult further?

Mr. Campbell

I believe the fact that some of these firms with their American expertise have decided to set up in Scotland rather than continue operating in the United States, or to set up on the other side of the North Sea, is of benefit to Scotland. I invite my hon. Friend and others to visit Nigg Bay, for example, Ardersier, because there will be about 2,000 new jobs there involving the sort of skills in which we in Scotland excel, such as steel construction and welding.

Mr. Millan

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what expert advice on the oil industry is available to him in the Scottish Office?

Mr. Campbell

Within the Scottish Office we have a number of people, in the regional development division, who are concerned largely with dealing with oil companies. Within the Government we have our own petroleum experts; they are experts in the petroleum industry. One of these is due to move north and set up in Scotland.