European Economic Community

HC Deb 20 November 1972 vol 846 cc895-8

14. Dr. Stuttaford

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on recent talks his Department have had with the countries of the European Economic Community on the preservation of the British fishing grounds.

Mr. John Davies

International discussion on fisheries conservation is conducted through the regional fisheries commissions for the North Atlantic, of which the United Kingdom is a member. We have, however, discussed with the Federal German Government and other members of the European Economic Community the problems arising in relation to fishing on the high seas off Iceland.

Dr. Stuttaford

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we are to preserve the stocks of herring in the North Sea, we must have further negotiations with the Dutch, whose practice of industrial fishing is undoing the good work done industrial fishing to other EEC countries? years? Is this not a matter for the EEC and nobody else, and will my right hon. Friend take steps to stop the spread of industrial fishing to other EEC countries?

Mr. Davies

Certainly this and other matters affecting fishing come within the matters which can be discussed with our partners in the Community. I take due note of the matter raised by my hon. Friend, and will certainly consider it.

Mr. McNamara

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply is far from satisfactory, in view of the great difficulties which faced Conservative Members when the whole question of fishing jurisdiction in the EEC was raised during consideraiton of the European Communities Bill? Is it not true that we have only a ten-year delegation for our fishing around our shores? Surely something should now be done to see that our fishermen's rights are adequately protected.

Mr. Davies

The matter of the rights of individual members of the Community at the time when the transitional period comes to an end will be a matter for further discussion within the Community. It is right to say that the arrangements which were achieved by my right hon. Friend of the former Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster were on the whole extremely well received and very favourable.

Mr. Brewis

Is it not vital that we achieve international agreement to govern these fishing limits, including the Icelandic dispute?

Mr. Davies

This is within the framework of my main answer, namely that these arc matters for discussion through the regional fishery commissions of the North Atlantic.

24. Mr. Jay

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether it is his intention to treat the agreements reached in Paris at the Summit Meeting on 19th and 20th October, and recorded in the communiqué issued on 21st October, as international agreements within the meaning of Section 1(4) of the European Communities Act.

Mr. John Davies

No, Sir, the communiqué is not a treaty within the meaning of Section 1 of the European Communities Act, 1972.

Mr. Jay

Then will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that these agreements have no automatic legislative effect in this country? Will he also explain how, in the absence of a parliamentary Question, Parliament and the courts would have been expected to know this one way or the other?

Mr. Davies

It has never been suggested that the communiqué, which was the result of the Summit meeting in Paris, should be regarded as a legislative instrument for the purposes of this country. A legislative instrument is one passed by an Act of Parliament. This has not been. This is not really an appropriate question.

Mr. Powell

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of other such communiqués have been expressly recognised as treaties for the purpose of the Act? What is the difference between those and this one?

Mr. Davies

I realise that a considerable number of individual instruments have been recognised, and were amongst those included in the annex to the White Paper to be treated as being within Section 1 of the Act. That is well known. But it has always been made clear by my right hon. and learned Friend the former Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that in that annex there were instruments which were not treaties and which could not be so regarded.

Mr. Shore

The right hon. Gentleman really must turn his mind to this question. We have had enough evasion. The last communiqué to come out of the previous Summit at The Hague was listed among the related treaties in the Appendix to the Treaty of Accession. I know because the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor told me that it is not regarded as a Community treaty. But what the whole country wishes to know is which of the various listed documents in that appendix are treaties and which are not. One must ask the right hon. Gentleman to make that information plain.

Mr. Davies

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware—indeed, he has written to me on this subject and I regret any delay in replying, but I have replied to him today—that defining precisely which instruments listed in the annex are to be regarded as treaties has been a matter of considerable discussion both through the office of the council and with the commission. There still remains a restricted area of doubt about certain instruments which I cannot clarify.

Mr. Jay

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply I beg leave to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.