Northern Ireland (Hansard, 16 November 1972)

§ 24. Mr. Duffy
asked the Minister of State for Defence if he is satisfied with 599 the Army civilian arrest procedures currently employed in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

§ The Minister of State for Defence, (Mr. Ian Gilmour)
I have nothing to add to the reply by my right hon. Friend the then Minister of State for Defence, to a similar Question by the hon. Member on 22nd June.—[Vol. 839, c. 695–6.]

§ Mr. Duffy
And yet the most disturbing allegations continue to be made about a minority of that very small number of British soldiers employed in civilian arrest procedures in Northern Ireland. When a distinguished and reputable newspaper like the Irish Times runs—as it did on 7th November—a story such as that under a headline like, "Man says soldier burnt"—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. There can be no quotation from a newspaper at Question Time.

§ Mr. Duffy
When a newspaper like the Irish Times runs a story under a headline like, "Man says"—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not quote either a headline or any part of a newspaper. I am sorry to have to take up time to remind him, but it is one of the old rules of the House that newspapers cannot be quoted from in Question Time.

§ Mr. Duffy
With respect, Mr. Speaker, I was not aware that I had done that. I thought that I had deliberately paraphrased it.
When a newspaper like the Irish Times runs such a story, does not the Minister think that all Members anxious to preserve the good name of the overwhelming majority of soldiers employed in operations in Northern Ireland are entitled to feel concerned?

§ Mr. Gilmour
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman talked about preserving the good name of our soldiers in Northern Ireland. There is a campaign by extremist elements in Northern Ireland to discredit the armed forces. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to say anything to support that campaign.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills
Is my hon. Friend aware that there is always a series of complaints against people who wish only 600 to do their duty fairly and impartially? Will he pay particular attention to answering such allegations, which are bandied about particularly in the United States, and use our information services to answer these points?

§ Mr. Gilmour
The answer to both parts of my hon. Friend's question is, "Yes", but we look into any allegations that are made.

§ Mr. Peter Archer
I accept that it is easy to make such allegations, just as it is easy to ill-treat people who are undergoing interrogation, but will the Minister set everyone's mind at rest by investigating the matter?

§ Mr. Gilmour
As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, interrogation is not carried out by the armed forces.

§ 25. Mr. McMaster
asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the total number of military casualties and deaths which have taken place in Northern Ireland as a result of the current terrorist campaign up to 24th March, 1972, and from 25th March, 1972, to date.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Peter Blaker)
As a result of terrorist or other hostile actions, the Army, including the Ulster Defence Regiment, sustained 66 killed and 564 wounded between August, 1969, and 24th March, 1972; 98 have been killed and 409 wounded between 25th March and 15th November, 1972. Since this is my first appearance at this Dispatch Box I would like to pay a tribute to our forces, who have conducted themselves magnificently.

§ Mr. McMaster
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Has he noticed that since the political initiative in March the rate of casualties in the Army has increased approximately fourfold? Will my hon. Friend say why, in his opinion, there has been this dramatic increase in the number of casualties since the political initiative was taken?

§ Mr. Blaker
I think it is right to say that it has always been understood that the introduction of direct rule carried certain risks for the community and for our forces. But we believe that it was entirely right to accept these risks in order to bring about conditions in which political developments could take place, for 601 no purely military solution was or is possible. I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the present trend of military casualties. Over the past few months, the number of regular soldiers killed was 17 in August, 11 in September, five in October and two, so far, in November.

§ Mr. Winterton
Bearing in mind the increased terrorist activity in the exposed county of Fermanagh, will my hon. Friend consider the use of helicopter patrols with fire power, which would reduce the military casualties in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Blaker
All appropriate measures are considered, and I shall bear that suggestion in mind.