HC Deb 15 November 1972 vol 846 cc404-7
11. Mr. Edward Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on his discussions with the European Economic Community regarding the limits on the size of heavy lorries permitted in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Peyton

At the Ministerial consultations in Brussels last week I again made clear the United Kingdom's opposion to the overall weights and particularly to the axle loads proposed by the Six. No decisions were taken, but the issue will be considered again at another meeting of the Council of Ministers before Christmas.

Mr. Taylor

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us are delighted at the splendid battle which he has been putting up to save Britain from the road congestion and massive road expenditure which would be involved in any such proposal? Is he hopeful of a satisfactory outcome? What happens if no agreement is possible?

Mr. Peyton

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for what he has been good enough to say. As to the satisfactory outcome, naturally, I cannot make any certain forecast before the consultations at the end of the month. If I were called upon to express an opinion, I would say that I cannot believe that the Council of Ministers would wish to come to a decision on what seems to me an unsatisfactory compromise just a few days before our full membership.

Mr. Jay

Could not the right hon. Gentleman easily satisfy opinion in this House by saying quite simply now that he will in no circumstances accept these EEC proposals for still heavier lorries?

Mr. Peyton

I would hate to satisfy opinion now, only to disappoint people later. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will not follow the example of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. I will do my best to sustain a case which I believe to be right. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to realise that it is a little difficult at the moment for the three acceding countries, who do not have a vote until 1st January.

Mr. Mulley

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he will do his best to sustain our interests in this matter, but does he not appreciate that he will be judged at the end of the process by what he achieves rather than by what he says, and that the whole country, having a great concern in this matter, will judge in the wider context the present Government's ability to look after our national interests in the enlarged Community? Will he not agree to anything until we are full members? It would not be unreasonable for this decision, which has come about after the negotiations, to be deferred until after 1st January.

Mr. Peyton

I shall certainly be inspired by the right hon. Gentleman's kind words. I accept that I shall be judged by what happens and not by what 1 now say. This is why I seek, in an atmosphere of negotiation, to be somewhat restrained.

12. Mr. David Clark

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will take steps to prohibit heavy lorries from minor roads and villages situated on them.

Mr. Peyton

Local authorities have powers for this purpose. Their use is governed by the availability of alternative routes and the need to provide access to premises.

Mr. Clark

Does the Minister realise that many people already feel that the quality of their lives has been threatened by the heavy lorries already on our roads? Is he further aware of the feeling in the country that, when he is finally bullied by French commercial interests into accepting 40-ton lorries, these lorries must be restricted to motorways and major trunk routes?

Mr. Peyton

This has not much to do with French commercial interests. As to the quality of people's lives, the hon. Member and others really must reflect that the heavy commercial vehicle plays a large part in the economy of this country and therefore in ordinary people's lives. It has enormous advantages as well as disadvantages.

Dame Joan Vickers

Thinking of the very narrow roads, particularly in the West Country, will my right hon. Friend see that in future the maps given to lorry drivers in EEC countries are marked accordingly? If they come at night, they often do not know that they cannot use these very small roads.

Mr. Peyton

I assure my hon. Friend that careful thought is now being given to advisory routes, and particularly to giving advice to foreign drivers.

Mr. Huckfield

Can the Minister tell us where he gets the miraculous figure of £200 million additional damage from heavier lorries? Is he aware that most people who have tried to ascertain the basis for these calculations have found none at all?

Mr. Peyton

I have every sympathy with the hon. Member in his failure. All that I can do is use the resources available to me to make the best estimate of the consequences if the axle loads went up by the amount now suggested.