§ Question again proposed.
§ Lord BalnielAfter that brief interval, I will return to the speech of the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East. I was surprised by the case which he developed in opening the debate. We have always been ready to consider constructively any suggestions which were practicable and likely to increase the effectiveness of existing sanctions. He suggested that we should blockade Lourenço Marques.
Apart from the question of territorial waters, such a proposal would involve economic confrontation with South Africa itself, because South Africa receives oil supplies through that port. It is worth recalling that the suggestion was specifically rejected by the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member. Demands are frequently made at the United Nations for courses of action which are not practicable, because they involve economic confrontation with South Africa. The previous Government refused to contemplate such a confrontation. The effect of new types of sanctions such as were advocated by the hon. and learned Member for Barons Court would be simply to damage yet further the credibility of the United Nations sanctions. False hopes would also be raised among the Africans.
The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East asked us to make representations about certain individuals, and he particularly mentioned Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano and Mr. Garfield Todd. We have used what influence we have to secure improvement in the position of Africans in general. For instance, after the proposals were agreed last year, 54 detainees were released and the proposed evictions of the mission at Epworth were suspended. I am pleased to be able to inform the right hon. Gentleman that we have urged that the two individuals men- 1332 tioned should be released or should be charged. Mr. Smith has done neither of these things, and we deeply regret this.
§ Mr. William Molloy (Ealing, North)Deplore it.
§ Lord BalnielWe deplore it. The reality is that our influence in Rhodesia is limited. Hon. Members opposite will remember that they could not stop the hanging of Africans. That is an indication of the difficulty of exerting our own wishes in Rhodesia at present.
§ Mr. WallAs my right hon. Friend is on compassionate cases, may I ask whether Sir Frederick and Lady Crawford who come here for compassionate reasons will now be allowed into the country by right?
§ Lord BalnielWhere compassionate reasons which are valid exist those cases are put before the advisory committee and will be considered. I believe that individuals who wish to appeal against a decision which has been taken in the past have a right of appeal.
§ Mr. CallaghanBefore the noble Lord leaves the case of individuals, I am glad to hear that representations have been made on behalf of some of the individuals concerned.
I do not wish to appear churlish, but can I ask how long ago those representations were made? I believe that the great majority of the House would want Mr. Smith to know that it is our view that those individuals who have not been charged, who Pearce felt were not being detained for any legitimate grounds either should now be charged or the restrictions should be taken off them. Will the noble Lord renew the appeal, if it has not been done recently?
§ Lord BalnielI cannot give the exact date to the right hon. Gentleman, but I will certainly inform him. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman has just spoken on behalf of the whole House and we shall be prepared to renew the appeals which we have made on behalf of those gentlemen.
Running through so many of the speeches which we have heard during the debate has been the question: for how much longer will the Government come to the House and ask for this annual 1333 renewal? There are so many variables to be judged. There is the degree to which sanctions are effectively contributing to discussions and compromises. There is the scale of evasion by other countries. In reaching any such decision, there must be a recognition by ourselves that, however distasteful these sanctions might be, an ending of them unaccompanied by alternative proposals will lead the world to conclude that an acceptable settlement can never be attained. Just as we judge the situation on its merits today, so the Government will have to weigh up the balance of advantage and disadvantage in the months which lie ahead. I will not put a calendar date on the answer to the question which has been put to me so often today. However, I will say that if we decide that sanctions contribute no useful purpose and that the scale of evasions by other members of the United Nations is unacceptable, we will not drop sanctions surreptitiously. We will come to the House openly and explain the reasons for the change of policy.
§ Mr. Hugh Jenkins (Putney)The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government will not contemplate the increasing of sanctions. However, he has not dealt effectively with the proposal that existing sanctions should be more effectively policed. It was suggested that the Government should go to the United Nations for the purpose of establishing a commissioner, who would have the duty of policing the effective sanctions. Will the right hon. Gentleman, before he sits
§ down, deal more effectively with that point?
§ Lord BalnielThe responsibility for implementing sanctions rests firmly on the United Nations Sanctions Committee, which considers all suggestions for improving or altering the system. The Government today are asking the House to maintain the status quo. We believe that this is a contributory method of fostering the multiracial discussions which are today taking place, following the Pearce Report. That was only six months ago, and more time is needed to move out from the emplacements of confrontation to sensible, harmonious discussions in Rhodesia. Britain has now done everything within its power to bring Rhodesia to legal independence. My belief is that any agreed settlement within Rhodesia must be somewhere very close to the proposals for a settlement of last November. The agreement now must come from within Rhodesia itself. For the people of Rhodesia, the issues are grave, since it is possibly their last chance to live in peace in Rhodesia.
We have urged restraint on all people living in Rhodesia. However great the personal reservations might be, I hope that the House will exercise the same restraint in meeting the Government's recommendation and passing the order before the House.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 266, Noes 29.
1335| Division No. 7.] | AYES | [10.10 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Buck, Antony | Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Deakins, Eric |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray & Nairn) | Dean, Paul |
| Ashton, Joe | Carlisle, Mark | Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund |
| Astor, John | Carmichael, Neil | Dodds-Parker, Douglas |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec |
| Atkinson, Norman | Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Drayson, G. B. |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Channon, Paul | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord | Chapman, Sydney | Dunn, James A. |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Chichester-Clark, R. | Dykes, Hugh |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Churchill, W. S. | Eadie, Alex |
| Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton) | Clegg, Walter | Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Cockeram, Eric | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Cohen, Stanley | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) |
| Benyon, W. | Concannon, J. D. | Emery, Peter |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Coombs, Derek | Ewing, Harry |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cormack, Patrick | Eyre, Reginald |
| Bishop, E. S. | Critchley, Julian | Faulds, Andrew |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Cronin, John | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Crowder, F. P. | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Davidson, Arthur | Foley, Maurice |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Foot, Michael |
| Fortescue, Tim | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Foster, Sir John | Longden, Sir Gilbert | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Fowler, Norman | Luce, R. N. | Rees, Peter (Dover) |
| Fox, Marcus | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Richard, Ivor |
| Gibson-Watt, David | McCartney, Hugh | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | McCrindle, R. A. | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mackenzie, Gregor | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | McLaren, Martin | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Gray, Hamish | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Green, Alan | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Scott, Nicholas |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | McNamara, J. Kevin | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Madel, David | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Grylls, Michael | Marks, Kenneth | Shelton, William, (Clapham) |
| Gummer, J. Selwyn | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Marsden, F. | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Hamling, William | Marshall, Dr. Edmund | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Harper, Joseph | Marten, Neil | Sillars, James |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mather, Carol | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hattersley, Roy | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Havers, Sir Michael | Meacher, Michael | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hawkins, Paul | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Speed, Keith |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Mendelson, John | Sproat, Iain |
| Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Millan, Bruce | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Steel, David |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Miscampbell, Norman | Strang, Gavin |
| Heseltine, Michael | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Hicks, Robert | Moate, Roger | Sutcliffe, John |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Molloy, William | Tapsell, Peter |
| Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Money, Ernie | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Hornby, Richard | Monro, Hector | Thomas, Rt Hn, Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Morrison, Charles | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Moyle, Roland | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Murray, Ronald King | Torney, Tom |
| Hunt, John | Murton, Oscar | |
| Hunter, Adam | Neave, Airey | Tuck, Raphael |
| Janner, Greville | Normanton, Tom | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Nott, John | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Ogden, Eric | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | O'Halloran, Michael | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) |
| Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Onslow, Cranley | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Oram, Bert | Walker. Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Orme, Stanley | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Jopling, Michael | Oswald, Thomas | Warren, Kenneth |
| Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Judd, Frank | Palmer, Arthur | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Parker, John (Dagenham) | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Pavitt, Laurie | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Pendry, Tom | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Kirk, Peter | Prescott, John | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huylon) |
| Knox, David | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Lamborn, Harry | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Lamont, Norman | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Worsley, Marcus |
| Lane, David | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | |
| Latham, Arthur | Raison, Timothy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Lawson, George | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Mr. Kenneth Clarke and |
| Leonard, Dick | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Mr. John Stradling Thomas. |
| Lester, Miss Joan | ||
| NOES | ||
| Biffen, John | Kinsey, J. R. | Stokes, John |
| Boscawen, Hn. Robert | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Molyneaux, James | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Montgomery, Fergus | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin |
| Dixon, Piers | Mudd, David | Wall, Patrick |
| Farr, John | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Fell, Anthony | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Hastings, Stephen | Rost, Peter | |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Skeet, T. H. H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Soref, Harold | Mr. Ronald Bell and |
| King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) | Mr. John Biggs-Davison |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
1337
§
Resolved,
That the Southern Rhodesia Act 1965 (Continuation) Order 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 17th October, in the last session of Parliament, be approved.
§
Resolved,
That the Southern Rhodesia (Immigration Act 1971) Order 1972 (S.I., 1972, No. 1583), a copy of which was laid before this House on 31st October, be approved.—[Sir Alec Douglas-Home.]