Picketing

HC Deb 07 November 1972 vol 845 cc801-4

8. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will introduce legislation to restrict legal immunity for peaceful picketing to those directly involved in the dispute to which picketing relates.

13. Mr. Wingfield Digby

asked the Secretary of State for Employment when he intends to seek to amend the law on peaceful picketing.

23. Sir D. Walker-Smith

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will introduce legislation for the amendment of the law of picketing so as to confine it to places of work directly affected by an industrial dispute.

34. Mr. Wall

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will redefine the law on peaceful picketing.

Mr. Maurice Macmillan

I am afraid I am not yet in a position to make a statement; the Government's review of the law on picketing is not yet complete.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

I am grateful for that reply. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will appreciate that many of our constituents do not entirely share his view that the law as it stands is adequate to deal with abuses of picketing. Is my right hon. Friend aware that in my constituency many builders wished to return to work during the recent building strike but feared to do so because of the threat of intimidation if they did? In the light of that, will not my right hon. Friend at least consider whether it is desirable that people should no longer be free to join any picket line in sight provided only that they could insist that they were seek- ing information and were not encouraging a breach of contract?

Mr. Macmillan

Quite clearly the practices to which my hon. Friend has referred are contrary to the law. The law gives no protection to the use of violence or intimidation, whether by sheer numbers or by other means. I agree that there has been and is very understandable concern about the behaviour of some pickets in recent disputes. All that I can say is that this behaviour is already contrary to the law. I do not think that anyone, least of all those in the trade union movement, would wish to condone such behaviour.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Is not it the case that so long as the question of legal validity depends upon questions of intention as to whether action is to disseminate information or to induce a breach of contract the law is difficult to enforce to the point of impossibility? Would not it be wise to amend Section 134 of the Industrial Relations Act so as to confine picketing to the place where there is an industrial dispute and to confine contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute to those who are genuinely concerned in the dispute in the context of their employment? Is not that the right way to contain these mobile aggressive pickets?

Mr. Macmillan

As my right hon. and learned Friend suggested, the law relating to secondary picketing is contained in the Industrial Relations Act, which makes it a civil rather than a criminal offence. My right hon. and hon. Friends have been concerned about a breach of the criminal law in the conduct of what otherwise would be a legitimate industrial dispute.

We have clearly stated that we are prepared to consider suggestions, whether from the trade unions, the employers or anyone else, for improving the Act. I will take note of what my right hon. and learned Friend said. However, I should draw the attention of the House to the fact that this question is very much the concern of the trade union movement, and the General Secretary of the TUC, Mr. Victor Feather, has spoken in as strong language as anyone else against methods of picketing which he and the trade union movement as a whole regard as irresponsible.

Mr. Orme

When making his statement, will the Minister take into account that during the debates on the Industrial Relations Bill no evidence was produced by either side of any abuse regarding picketing? It is only since the introduction of the Act and the deterioration in industrial relations that this problem has arisen. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to get to the centre of the issue he should repeal the Industrial Relations Act.

Mr. Macmillan

I can refute what the hon. Gentleman said from personal experience. I had many examples of illegal violence from my constituency experience many years ago, and at the time they were condemned by responsible trade union officials and by all concerned as strongly as they are condemned now.

Mr. Wall

As the law stands, is it not illegal to stop a lorry or a motor car if the driver clearly does not want to stop? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the law is enforced?

Mr. Macmillan

Yes. My hon. Friend has made the point that it is already illegal to do many of the things which have been quoted in the newspapers as having been done. The problem is one of enforcement against those who carry out illegal practices.

Mr. J. T. Price

Having had this question put to him so pointedly by one of his hon. Friends, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that many hon. Members on this side of the House are seriously concerned to make their contribution to improving industrial relations, which are now at the lowest ebb I can recall? Will the Minister resist all attempts made by the wildcats opposite, who know little about industrial relations, to foul the atmosphere and make it worse than it is?

Mr. Macmillan

I do not agree that industrial relations are as bad as they have ever been. We have had a long period of consultation with the trade unions in which all acknowledge that the Government have had deeper and fuller consultations with the trade union movement than any Government for many years. The Industrial Relations Act fully protects the right of peaceful picketing. The Government intend to uphold not only that right but the right of those who wish to go to work without being intimidated or illegally prevented from so doing.

Mr. Skinner

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding what his right hon. and learned Friend said about peaceful picketing being confined to the place of work, it is impossible to confine it to a simple solution like "the place of work"? How would the right hon. Gentleman define the place of work of those engaged in the service industries—for example, lorry drivers?

Mr. Macmillan

There are great complications in the law on picketing, as I have been the first to admit. I particularly welcome Mr. Victor Feather's statement that this is one of the matters which the unions were considering dealing with themselves. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that those who are intimidated by illegal action are usually members of a trade union being intimated by a minority, and that this problem has to be faced by all concerned.