Railways

HC Deb 06 November 1972 vol 845 cc608-12

13. Mr. Coleman

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his policy regarding applications for railway closures in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I am concerned to ensure that a most thorough examination is made of all the social and economic implications of any proposal affecting the railway services in the Principality.

Mr. Coleman

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the recently published plan for the future railway system of the United Kingdom? Does he think that the industrial development that he hopes will take place in Wales can take place if the railway system proposed in the plan for Wales is carried out? Will he now undertake that no approval of cuts will be carried through as are proposed in the plan for Wales?

Mr. Thomas

The hon. Gentleman must not make remarks which mislead. There was no "recently published plan" for the future of the railway system. The plan to which he is referring, and to which so many hon. Members have paid so much heed, was one of a series of studies taking place in a Government Department and no decisions have been taken at all on any of the conclusions reached by any of that series of studies.

Mr. Hooson

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that these studies, which presumably are eventually to form the basis of decisions, should be published so that hon. Members from Wales and others concerned should know the grounds on which arguments for and against are being made? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bring influence to bear on the Secretary of State for the Environment to publish these studies?

Mr. Thomas

The hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that internal studies in a Government Department would not be published. The position is that no rail passenger service in the country may be withdrawn without the consent of the Secretary of State for the Environment, and every opportunity is given for a full expression of views. I am, of course, consulted before any decisions are taken affecting Wales.

Mr. Coleman

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

15. Mr. Elystan Morgan

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will request the Graham Rees committee on transport in Wales to make an interim report on Welsh railways.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 17th October.—[Vol. 843, c. 77.]

Mr. Morgan

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recollect that when he announced to the Welsh Grand Committee on 15th December last the setting up of the Graham Rees committee, he gave the impression that it would be the report of this comprehensive study that would be the basis of strategic decisions to be made in Wales in regard to transport? Was he at that time the victim himself of a deceit in that he did not know that this plan was being prepared by the Department of the Environment, or was he perpetrating a deceit on the members of the Welsh Grand Committee in that he knew about the plan but gave them no inkling of its existence?

Mr. Thomas

There was no deceit whatever. I announced the setting up not of a Graham Rees committee but of a study being undertaken by Professor Graham Rees for the Welsh Council, and I announced that the money entailed would be provided. That was what I announced to the Welsh Grand Committee. I hope I gave no other impression. It is not for me to dictate the scale or timetable of that study. It is an independent and objective study and I hope that it will not be made into a political football.

Mr. Morgan

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us whether he did or did not know of the existence of the other studies being made by the Department of the Environment?

Mr. Thomas

I am fully aware that the Department of the Environment and British Rail have been conducting a series of studies and that to seize on one study and consider that that is to be the subject of a decision by the Government shows that the hon. Gentleman is wholly remote from the processes of Government.

18. Mr. Rowlands

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the recent exercise of his oversight powers as they relate to transport matters in Wales.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I am in constant touch with my colleagues about all matters relating to transport in Wales and no decisions affecting the Principality are taken without full consultation with me.

Mr. Rowlands

If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is indeed in such constant touch, was he in constant touch on 15th December last when he made his announcement about the Graham Rees committee? Was the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the study published in the Sunday Times, or did he read it for the first time then? Will he scotch the ideas in that study, which would wipe out every valley passenger service in South Wales?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I repeat what I have said. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries has explained, no decisions have been taken on the shape of the future rail network. There will be full consultation before future policy is decided upon once the present studies have been completed.

Mr. George Thomas

The right hon. and learned Gentleman owes it to the House to be more frank and forthcoming. Is he aware that he is giving the impression of trying to hide behind this question? Was he aware on 15th December of the proposal that was leaked to the Press? If he was, is he further aware that he is open to the charge of deliberately misleading the Welsh Grand Committee?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I admire the right hon. Gentleman for the tortuous way he approaches any of these problems. The position is that I was aware that these studies were taking place but I was not aware of an individual study. It has been explained to the House that this paper was one of a series of studies being prepared both in the Department of the Environment and also by British Rail, that no decision has been taken by the Government in respect of future rail services and that when a decision is taken as far as Wales is concerned I will be fully consulted. We will take into account all the representations being made and the Welsh Council will be consulted.

21. Mr. McBride

asked the Secretary of State for Wales to what extent he has assessed the present and future railway service requirements of Wales; and from what sources he has received advice in relation to this matter.

Mr. Peter Thomas

The needs of Wales are kept under regular review. In this, as in other matters, I receive advice from a variety of sources.

Mr. McBride

lf, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said, he was consulted about the recently publicly leaked report from the Department of the Environment, has he, on behalf of Wales, stated his objection to the implementation of the proposals in the Cabinet? Has he been consulted about the map which is extant at Strasbourg showing the railway services of the Nine and indicating much worse rationalisation for Wales than is contained in the Department of the Environment report? Will he, on behalf of Wales, fight for the retention of the existing railway services in Wales which are so important in industrial, social and employment terms?

Mr. Thomas

I am well aware of the anxiety which the hon. Gentleman feels about the future of rail services in Wales, and I have read his recent speech in the House, but he must not say that I have stated that I have been consulted about the publicly leaked report. As I have said, I was aware that studies were being made, but I did not see any individual report. No decision will be taken about railway services in Wales without consultation with me and without full consideration of all the implications.