Northern Ireland (Hansard, 18 May 1972)

§ 3. Mr. Duffy
asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on his official visit this month to the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland.

§ The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel)
I visited the troops in Northern Ireland on 15th and 16th May. They continue to perform their difficult task with exemplary patience, determination and restraint and their morale remains remarkably high.

§ Mr. Duffy
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that statement. Did he visit the Palace Barracks, Holywood, or the Girdwood Barracks in the centre of Belfast? They have acquired a notorious reputation in legal circles. Did he read the contention of the Sunday Times on 7th May that there is a wealth of evidence that there is still something wrong with Army methods of interrogation? Can he assure us that the Army is not lending itself to practices which may be counter-productive of the policies being pursued by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland?

§ Lord Balniel
Yes, I visited one of those barracks, and I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance he requests.

§ Mr. Pounder
Since my right hon. Friend is a regular visitor to the Army in Northern Ireland, may I ask him how his mood and assessment of the visit he made a few days ago compared with a visit he made on a previous occasion?

§ Lord Balniel
The Army's task is to further the Government's aim of reducing tension and violence. At the same time it remains the responsibility of the Army to assist the civil power in eliminating terrorism and violence and restoring law and order. Whenever military measures are deemed to be necessary, military measures which are effective and totally impartial will be taken.

§ Mr. Whitehead
If the right hon. Gentleman's discussion covered matter: leading to the reduction of tension and violence, will he comment on the actior of the Parachute Regiment yesterday in driving vehicles at high speed, as the Press reports, through a funeral procession? I recognise that funeral processions are provocative to the majority community in Northern Ireland, but is it not a fact that this sort of action must increase tension and violence'?

§ Lord Balniel
I cannot comment on the allegation the hon. Gentleman has made; I have not heard about it. What I do know is that the Parachute battalion, after two years' experience in Northern Ireland, is widely regarded as being one of the most experienced and efficient battalions in carrying out the law and order duties which have to be fulfilled. I also know that that battalion. over the last weekend, restored law and order in Ballymurphy with quite remarkable efficiency.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House why the military were not present yesterday al Machie's foundry when the workers were leaving? The foundry has always been a flashpoint and workers have been attacked continually when coming from their place of work. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 10 shots were fired at the workers and that four workers were injured? The workers at the foundry are greatly perturbed about the terrible situation which is arising.

§ Lord Balniel
The situation facing the security forces is very grave, but it is 665 quite impossible for them to be at every street in Northern Ireland. But whenever violence explodes or there is loss of life the security forces will take what steps they can to secure the restoration of law and order.

§ 14. Mr. Winterton
asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps the British Army is currently taking to prevent the flow of terrorists, explosives and arms into Northern Ireland from the Irish Republic.

§ Lord Balniel
The security forces continue to take all practicable measures to control the Border.

§ Mr. Winterton
I thank my right hon. Friend for that helpful answer. I recently paid a two-day visit to County Fermanagh, which is very exposed to the activities of the IRA. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are only about 70 soldiers in the whole of the county, of which only 35 are fighting soldiers? Does he not think it would be more sensible to control and patrol the Border to prevent large amounts of ammunition and explosives and large numbers of terrorists infiltrating into the North rather than to carry out difficult searches in the main centres of population?

§ Lord Balniel
While not completely accepting without checking the figures which my hon. Friend has given, I accept that the general principle on which the Army is controlling the Border is based upon patrols and the closing of a certain number of roads to canalise traffic where that is more easily checked. I am sure the House appreciates that the task of closing the Border would absorb immense numbers of troops. The inconvenience which would be caused can be gauged from the fact that 50,000 vehicles cross the Border every day. That is the scale of the problem which faces the security forces.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills
Will my right hon. Friend say whether, since the initiative, there has been any change in the level of activity from the Southern Ireland forces of Mr. Lynch?

§ Lord Balniel
The Government welcome the measures that were taken recently by the Government of the Republic, but we should welcome even greater co-operation from them in the future.

§ Mr. Duffy
Does the right hon. Gentle. man agree that a much more obvious step to take in respect of arms, and one which falls more readily within their competence and would be interpreted as an earnest of the Government's good intentions, would be to call in arms registered as being in private possession?

§ Lord Balniel
The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that many of the arms registered as being in private possession are used for the protection of individual people, too many of whom, alas. have been attacked in their own houses.

§ Mr. Powell
When my right hon. Friend says that all practicable measures are being taken, does he mean that no further measures of control are practicable?

§ Lord Balniel
if one is prepared to devote immense resources of manpower, it is always possible to take further measures. That is not regarded by Ministers responsible for defence policy as being the highest priority in which to deploy the troops who are in Northern Ireland for the preservation of law and order.

§ Mr. John Morris
Is the Army more effective now than it was three or six months ago in controlling terrorists, explosives and arms coming over the Border?

§ Lord Balniel
That is very difficult to quantify. One can measure to some extent the degree of improvement in control of explosives crossing the border by the fact that so many of the recent bombs which have been defused or which have exploded in the cities of Northern Ireland have been made out of components which are available within Northern Ireland and not out of gelignite. For that reason my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has introduced an order to control the products which can be used to make bombs.

§ 29. Mr. McMaster
asked the Minister of State for Defeence on how many occasions since 12th August, 1969, soldiers stationed in Northern Ireland have claimed they have hit terrorists when returning gunfire on themselves; how many terrorists they claim to have killed or injured on these occasions; and how many of these casualties have been 667 arrested subsequently and how many bodies have been recovered.

§ Lord Balniel
I regret it is not possible to provide this information in the form requested, nor to provide it from 12th August, 1969.
Reports available to me indicate that since 19th January, 1971, a total of 142 people suspected of being terrorists are known to have been killed or injured and a further 329 are believed to have been killed or injured. Such casualties arose from a number of causes, including military gunfire, police gunfire and also various terrorist activities.
I understand that it is not possible to establish positively how many of the civilian casualties notified to the civil authorities were terrorists who had been shot by troops.

§ Mr. McMaster
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is grave disquiet in Northern Ireland over the fact that almost daily the Army claims to have shot and injured or killed terrorists but is unable to recover their bodies? Does my right hon. Friend think it satisfactory that the degree of control over no-go or Republican-dominated areas of Northern Ireland is so weak that it is possible for terrorists who have been shot or injured to be spirited away under the noses of the troops? Will he take effective steps to establish a much better degree of control over the Republican areas of Northern Ireland?

§ Lord Balniel
I appreciate that it is difficult for laymen to understand why the claims of casualties are not substantiated by the bodies of the terrorists being found. The reason, as I am sure the House will appreciate, is that it would be wrong to expect the troops to expose themselves to additional danger simply to recover an assailant's body. I do not believe that anyone in the House would regard that as necessary.
On the wide issues raised by my hon. Friend, on 4th May my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland made it clear that he would not be prepared to see any extension of no-go areas. It is correct that in some areas the enforcement of law and order is a grave problem indeed, but when military action is deemed to be necessary it will be taken promptly, effectively and completely impartially.

§ Mr. Fitt
The Minister said that 142 persons suspected of terrorist activities had been shot by the Army. May we have an indication of the source of that information? Do the figures come from military sources, from the RUC or from the Government of Northern Ireland? Is the Minister aware that by making this serious allegation—that 142 people suspected of terrorist activities have been shot—he may be jeopardising the claims of the dependants of those persons who are still living?

§ Lord Balniel
I do not follow the logic of the hon. Gentleman's argument. The information is collated from a variety of sources. It includes military, police and general information available in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
Does my noble Friend have statistics covering the number of terrorists who have been injured or killed when firing from across the Border at troops in Northern Ireland? Is he aware of the concern that is felt in Northern Ireland about the spread of no-go areas and the fact that one Ulster newspaper has claimed that a no-go area has been established in the Clonard?

§ Lord Balniel
I do not have immediately available the figures which my hon. Friend seeks, but if he will table a Question I will endeavour to get them. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be making a statement later this afternoon on the subject of security in Northern Ireland and will no doubt cover the other point raised by my hon. Friend.