§ Q2. Mr. Ashleyasked the Prime Minister what further arrangements he has made to meet leaders of the Trades 234 Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry.
§ The Prime MinisterI expect that further discussions will take place on the issues considered at my recent meetings with the TUC and CBI, but no specific dates have yet been fixed.
§ Mr. AshleyIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the fine sentiments he expressed at the weekend at Perth about conciliation rather than confrontation are now seen to be a misleading gimmick in view of the stupid and vicious attack on, Vic Feather by the Secretary of State for Employment, to whom I have given notice of this Question? Does the Prime Minister endorse or repudiate that personal attack by the right hon. Gentleman and does he recognise that his Government are inflicting irreparable damage on our system of collective bargaining which, for all its faults, is still the envy of the world?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's statement about the implications for the system of collective bargaining, nor do I agree that it is the envy of the world. I wish it were. Nor can I accept that my speech about conciliation was a gimmick. It was a proposal made by Mr. Victor Feather at one of my meetings with the TUC. It was also taken up by the CBI when I met them. On both occasions I said that of course we would pursue it. Both sides agree that it is not a new proposal. I remember that as long ago as 1959, when I was Minister of Labour, it was being considered whether there should be separate machinery. As for my right hon. Friend's speech, he was replying to a speech by Mr. Feather when, as General Secretary of the TUC, he said that the priority should be to bring about a General Election. What my right hon. Friend was asking was whether he had the authority to say that on behalf of the whole trade union movement.
§ Mr. RedmondWhen my right hon. Friend again meets the CBI and the TUC together, will he suggest that they might consider setting up a joint statistical agency, employed jointly by them, to provide facts and figures in cases of dispute so that at least they would be arguing from the same basis on every occasion?
§ The Prime MinisterI suggested that to both the TUC and the CBI at the meetings I had with them before Easter. I pointed out to them how this is done in other countries, in particular in Sweden, where there is a bureau financed jointly by the employers and the trade unions. If they had a bureau here which they had created and whose statistics they could accept, that would save a great deal of time and probably differences of opinion in the negotiations.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonIs the Prime Minister aware that, notwithstanding the harsh words of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), we wish to congratulate him on his speech in Perth on Saturday in that he has accepted a proposal which was not only put forward by the TUC and Mr. Feather but was first published in an article in the New Statesmen signed by Mr. Jack Jones?
§ The Prime MinisterIf Mr. Jack Jones is prepared to support a body to conciliate which also accepts responsibility to the consumer, no one would welcome it more than myself.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonIn that case will the Prime Minister say what was the difference between the proposal in his speech and the reconstitution of the National Board for Prices and Incomes which, in a fit of post-election hubris, he abolished?
§ The Prime MinisterAs I understand it, the Prices and Incomes Board was never meant to carry out conciliation. Its purpose was one of examination, and some would say of education, but it was certainly not one of conciliation.