HC Deb 16 March 1972 vol 833 cc737-44
5. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now give an estimate as to when the operations, of the British Army against terrorists in Northern Ireland are likely to be successfully concluded.

The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel)

No, Sir. As I have said repeatedly, there can be no purely military solution. Attrition of the I.R.A. continues, but I do not propose to speculate about the time scale for further improvement in the security situation, and even small numbers of terrorists can create great havoc.

Mr. Cronin

Although the Army is playing its part with efficiency, humanity and courage, is it not apparent that there is no hope of a military solution? Is it not therefore urgent for the Government to take a political initiative and to have the courage to abolish internment and greatly modify or get rid of the Stormont Government?

Lord Balniel

The hon. Gentleman's description of the work undertaken by the Army is shared by everybody in the House and in the country. The Government will make a statement on the wider issues of a political solution at a time which they judge will be most effective in securing progress.

Mr. Kilfedder

Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite the dedication and great courage of the British Army and its achievements to date, the terrorists will not be finally defeated until the Government of the Republic of Eire do something about the terrorists who are walking about openly in Eire?

Lord Balniel

Any further assistance which the Government of Eire can give us in securing the arrest of killers is most welcome.

Mr. Maclennan

Is the Minister aware that the Opposition welcome the firmness with which he has stated this afternoon that there can be no complete success in military terms without political progress, but does the Minister not agree that the Government's delay in initiating a political step is embarrassing the Army in carrying out its task?

Lord Balniel

The Government have said on frequent occasions that there is no purely military solution and that unquestionably a political solution is also involved, but it must be for the Government to decide the exact moment when such a solution can best be advanced to secure the interests that we all have in mind.

7. Mr. Duffy

asked the Minister of State for Defence when he next proposes to pay an official visit to Northern Ireland.

Lord Balniel

I have no immediate plans to visit Northern Ireland.

Mr. Duffy

In view of the fact that it is now a year since the Minister was in Northern Ireland, does he not think that he should make another visit to that country? The right hon. Gentleman will recall that before the departure of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to Northern Ireland last autumn, he was reported in The Times on 2nd October, 1971, as being in an optimistic mood before departure. From the Minister's own acquaintance with the log book of events in Northern Ireland since 2nd October, can he give one single item to support that optimism felt by the Secretary of State?

Lord Balniel

During the last 10 months my colleagues and I have made a total of seven visits, and a further ministerial visit is planned in the fairly near future. There has been a steady attrition of the I.R.A., but it is unwise for those who are responsible for military operations to speculate as to exactly when final success can be achieved.

Mr. Stratton Mills

Is it not a great mistake to go on the basis of certain spectacular I.R.A. incidents and to assume, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) appears to assume, that the Army is not making substantial progress?

Lord Balniel

Yes; it struck me that every assumption made by the hon. Gentleman was completely fallacious.

Mr. Cronin

Is it not possible for the Government, even on an informal basis, to make some arrangements with the I.R.A. to have some sort of cease-fire or cessation of operations until a political initiative is taken by Her Majesty's Government?

Lord Balniel

It would be more appropriate to address questions about any political initiative to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

11. Mr. Stratton Mills

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will mobilise the Territorial Army for use in Northern Ireland in the present emergency.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

No, Sir. The resources of the Regular Army and the U.D.R. are at present sufficient.

Mr. Stratton Mills

Surely this is an "Alice in Wonderland" situation where the United Kingdom faces a major security problem and 3,000 highly trained and disciplined men in the Territorial Army are not used. Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that he will consider the possibility of removing the red tape surrounding this matter so that, if the situation merits it at any stage in the future, he will be able to change the present absurd position?

Mr. Johnson Smith

This is a matter for legislation. If the TAVR wished to serve on a part-time basis, we should need to legislate. There is no doubt that individual members of the TAVR can serve on a part-time basis if they join the U.D.R. Most of them know the strains and the considerable disruption caused to civilian occupations if they are called out en masse.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

Will my hon. Friend at least give an assurance that should the G.O.C. at any time represent to him or to the Secretary of State that there is a need to increase further the number of troops in Northern Ireland, everything will be done to meet that request?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I can give the assurance that we shall certainly consider most seriously any recommendations on that score made by the G.O.C.

Mr. George Thomson

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House are getting a little tired of remarks from the benches opposite about the views of my right hon. and hon. Friends? There is every sign that the Government are trying to cover up the divisions in their own party over Irish policy by attacking my right hon. and hon. Friends. Is the hon. Gentleman aware, further, that the Government's policy of drift and delay over an initiative in Ireland is the real source of the present problem and that so long as it goes on the Government are letting down our soldiers there?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I cannot accept those remarks. I can understand why some people in Northern Ireland think that it is a nonsense that the TAVR is not playing its part. I know that many individual members of the TAVR would like to do so. If they wish to serve on a part-time basis, there is the Ulster Defence Regiment. If they wish to serve as members of the TAVR, however, it will involve legislation.

14. Mr. Chichester-Clark

asked the Minister of State for Defence what action has been taken by the Army to restore security in Strabane, Northern Ireland.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

Since the Army strength in Strabane was increased last December, considerable efforts have been made against the terrorists who are the main source of the trouble there. This is one of the areas where much of the terrorist activity is mounted from across the border. Nevertheless, renewed efforts are being made and only yesterday a further platoon was deployed in the area.

Mr. Chichester-Clark

I am grateful for that reply. Is my hon. Friend aware of the published documents from courageous and beleaguered people in Strabane and the fact that shortly after publishing them the main civic centre was blown up? This town is perhaps the most easily defensible of all, because of the bridge separating it from Lifford, in the Republic. Would not Mr. Lynch demonstrate his good intentions by making certain that his side of the border in that case at least is looked after properly?

Mr. Johnson Smith

That would help a great deal.

Mr. Orme

Is the hon. Gentleman aware also that in the town of Strabane there is a 29 per cent, rate of male unemployment, and that if the Government did something about that they might help ease the situation?

21. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will now give fresh consideration to the formation of permanent units of the Ulster Defence Regiment.

Mr. Johnson Smith

We have considered this matter, but recruitment is going well and we have no plans for permanent units.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Are not locally based forces with local knowledge crucial, particularly against the eventual withdrawal of Regular forces? If my hon. Friend is worried about legislation, is it not the case that the House would give its full co-operation over the U.D.R. and the Territorial Army, which was the subject of a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills)?

Mr. Johnson Smith

It is possible for men to become permanent staff of the Ulster Defence Regiment. We have recently increased its numbers. We welcome those who wish to give full-time service becoming members of the permanent staff. It is appropriate that I should remind them that there are also vacancies in the police reserve, in addition to the full-time administrative posts in the Ulster Defence Regiment.

Mr. Paget

Is it not a bit difficult to go on with this regiment on a part-time basis when it is impossible, when they are off duty, either to protect them or to deter their murderers?

Mr. Johnson Smith

It is wrong for the hon. and learned Gentleman to suggest that they cannot be protected. It would be quite incorrect to assume that.

Mr. Paget

What about those who have been murdered in their houses?

Captain Orr

Following what the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) has said, may I ask whether my hon. Friend is yet satisfied with the arrangements being made for the personal protection of members of the U.D.R., including their personal arms?

Mr. Johnson Smith

This matter is under review by the Commander of the Ulster Defence Regiment.

26. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make further arrangements for Opposition Members of the House of Commons to pay official visits to British Army units operating against terrorists in Northern Ireland.

Lord Balniel

I will consider any request—from either side of the House—that is made to me. But I am sure the House will realise that whether facilities can be granted or not will depend on the circumstances at the time. There is, of course, no restriction upon any Member visiting Northern Ireland in a private capacity.

Mr. Cronin

I have no doubt that the Army is behaving as humanely as possible. However, is it not the case that its operations must involve a large degree of harassment of the Roman Catholic population who are, in effect, now living in the worst kind of police State? Would not this situation be remedied if hon. Members had opportunities to see that they were not suffering undue hardship?

Lord Balniel

I simply refuse to accept the hypothesis on which that question is based.

Mr. Chichester-Clark

Is it not obvious from previous questions that such visits would not only be highly welcome, but that they are clearly very necessary?

Lord Balniel

As I said, there is no restriction on such visits. However, we should be careful to avoid burdening the troops at a time when they are under great strain and working hard for the preservation of peace and order in Northern Ireland.

28. Mr. Mather

asked the Minister of State for Defence if the Army has examined the feasibility of stricter military security measures on the border between Ulster and the Republic of Ireland.

Lord Balniel

This is a matter which is kept under constant review.

Mr. Mather

Would my noble Friend not agree that it is desirable now to introduce normal international forms on the border, to include passports and vehicle documents, pending military measures to seal this enemy line of communication?

Lord Balniel

The question of passports is not one for me to answer, but the Government do not consider that it is practicable to seal the Border effectively. The force level required—the border is 300 miles long—would be prohibitive. Also, such measures would cause immense inconvenience to the peaceful traffic and economic well-being in the area, and would also involve the complete dislocation of life for those people who live in the border areas.

Mr. Maclennan

Would the noble Lord agree that the best hope of controlling the border more effectively than it is at present stems from the co-operation of the Government of the Republic of Ireland, and that that co-operation is less likely to be forthcoming if the kind of measures recommended by the hon. Member fox Esher (Mr. Mather) are followed?

Lord Balniel

The Government of course welcome the measures which have been taken by the Government of the Republic of Ireland, but we would welcome more assistance in this respect.

Mr. Pounder

Does my noble Friend not realise that there is grave anxiety about border security in Northern Ireland, and that while it may be unreasonable to ask armed units to under take this task, it is a job which could be done by an expanded Ulster Defence Regiment if the obstacles in the way of transfer from the T.A. on a part-time or full-time basis were removed?

Lord Balniel

I can only repeat that the Government do not consider the sealing of the border to be practicable. The force levels required would be completely prohibitive.