§ 2. Mr. William Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will now pay another visit to Salisbury.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeNo, Sir.
§ Mr. PriceDid the right hon. Gentleman see the recent television interview between David Frost and Ian Smith? If he did, how could he come to a conclusion that Smith was anything other than a pathological liar? How can the right hon. Gentleman believe a word the man says?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI did not see the television programme. However, it is not really a matter of trust or distrust but one in which if an agreement were reached it would be in the interest of Mr. Smith to keep it.
§ 3. Mr. Clinton Davisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many people have been detained by the illegal régime in Rhodesia since the Pearce Commission cancelled its deliberations; how many of these are alleged to have intimidated Africans to support the settlement proposals; and if he will make a statement on the action taken by the Government concerning these detainees.
§ 17. Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further information he has received concerning persons detained in 1001 Rhodesia during the testing of opinion on the proposed settlement by the Pearce Commission: and if he will make a statement.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeFive people have been detained under ministerial orders since the Pearce Commission was appointed. Other people, I understand, are also being held under 30-day police detention orders, but the Rhodesian authorities have not made available information about their number. I have no information about the grounds for these detentions.
§ Mr. DavisHas not the right hon. Gentleman made inquiries of his own volition about the persons so detained? Why is he so reticent in taking action about these matters? The right hon. Gentleman has not answered one of the matters posed in my Question: how many of these people are alleged to have intimidated Africans to support the settlement proposals? Will the right hon. Gentleman be more forthcoming than he has been to the House?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI always try to be as forthcoming as I can but I do not have the information as to why the other people have been detained under 30-day police detention orders. It may be that I can get it but I doubt it I hope that the Pearce Commission will report on the alleged intimidation when it returns home.
§ Mr. WhiteheadHas the right hon. Gentleman more information about the continued detention of Mr. Garfield Todd and his daughter and of Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano, since we have been told that a tribunal has been reviewing their case, about which the British Government have said absolutely nothing?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeMr. Todd and Miss Todd are back on their farm. I do not know where Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano are but I will find out. They are out of detention.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonHas Mr. Smith locked up or restricted any member of the Parliamentary Opposition as President Kaunda has done in Zambia?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeNot to my knowledge, Sir.
§ Mr. HealeyThe right hon. Gentleman will recall telling us earlier that he has so far received no information from Mr. Smith as to the grounds on which Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano and Mr. and Miss Todd are being detained. Now that a hearing has been held and the detention orders have been confirmed, can he tell us the grounds on which these people have been detained and whether he believes that those grounds are sufficient? If he cannot, can he make inquiries?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI will try to ascertain what grounds the tribunal discussed in its consideration. Mr. Smith has said that these persons were detained on grounds of a threat to security inside Rhodesia. Whether the tribunal has upheld that allegation I cannot say, but I gather that it has recommended that the detention of Mr. and Miss Todd at Mr. Todd's farm should be upheld.
§ 4. Miss Lestorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the Pearce Commission.
§ 7. Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of the Pearce Commission in its consultations about the proposed settlement in Rhodesia.
§ 18. Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the situation in Rhodesia.
§ 24. Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will report on the progress of the Pearce Commission's findings in Rhodesia.
§ 47. Mr. Clinton Davisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the present activities of the Pearce Commission.
§ 48. Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the work of the Pearce Commission.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeLord Pearce and his Commission are now engaged on the final phase of their task in Rhodesia 1003 and are due to return to the United Kingdom on or about 11th March.
§ Miss LestorWill the Foreign Secretary tell us to what extent he believes that Mr. Ian Smith has protected the conditions in which the test of acceptability was to be held? Will he also say what he intends to do, when the Pearce Commission reports, to safeguard the rights of people in Rhodesia who have opposed the settlement and oppose Mr. Ian Smith?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeNo conditions whatever were applied by Mr. Smith to the Commission's activities. The Commission was able to conduct its affairs exactly as it wished. As to internal security in Rhodesia after Lord Pearce has reported, the hon. Lady knows, as well as I do that we have very little power.
§ Mr. BarnettWill the Foreign Secretary assure the House that he has laid contingency plans so that, whatever Lord Pearce reports, there will be no delay in the action and policies which the Government will pursue in the light of the report?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI must see the report first.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonHas it been made clear that no better offer is open to the African population? Is the Commission now increasingly hearing evidence in strict privacy, which is the right way in view of the intimidation?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeWhether the Commission holds meetings in private or in public must be left to the Commission. It has applied a mixture of the two methods. As far as I have seen, except for marginal improvements, no better proposals have been put forward for a settlement.
§ Mr. DykesI do not wish my right hon. Friend at this delicate moment to anticipate the outcome of the Pearce Commission's findings, but he does not agree that subsequent to the results of the inquiry a number of options will be open which go beyond the two which are uppermost in peoples' minds, namely, a "Yes" decision from the Commission or, as Ian Smith suggested, a return to the 1969 constitution?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI have no idea what Lord Pearce will report. There could, I suppose, be a halfway position between "Yes" and "No". I have no information whatever and I must read the report before I can comment.
§ Mr. DavisIs the right hon. Gentleman prepared to give an undertaking to the House that, in the event of the Commission reporting against the settlement proposals, his Government will continue the policy of sanctions?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeIf the hon. Gentleman is asking me whether I will pretend that "No" is "Yes", I will not.
§ Mr. WallWill my right hon. Friend make it clear that there can be no further constitutional conference if the Pearce Commission reports "No", and will he say when he expects to make a statement to the House on the report of the Pearce Commission?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe Pearce Commission still has to report, and I must allow myself time to consider it. It will be a number of weeks after Lord Pearce has reported before I can make a statement. I understand that the Commission has between 12,000 and 20,000 letters still to process, so the report will be quite a time yet.
§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonWill the Foreign Secretary expand his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Clinton Davis)? Bearing in mind that the fifth principle, which has been accepted by both Governments, is that no settlement can be proposed which is not acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole, if the Africans say "No" does that mean that there can be no settlement?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeWith great respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think he will want to see, and so will I, exactly how Lord Pearce phrases his report before coming to a conclusion about the subsequent action we might take.
§ 20. Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are now the responsibilities of the Beira Patrol.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe responsibilities of the Beira Patrol remain unchanged, namely to prevent the arrival 1005 at Beira of vessels reasonably believed to be carrying oil destined for Southern Rhodesia.
§ Mr. Bruce-GardyneSurely, while this worthy body of men has been preventing the arrival of oil to a terminal which apparently cannot receive it, a different situation has ariven. Now, apparently, this patrol has dipped its flag in salute to the passage of 25,000 tons of Rhodesian chrome which British firms alone are not allowed to purchase. Could we not consider using this little fleet to offer passage to this chrome, so that at least we get the freight charges on it?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe purpose of the Beira Patrol was, as I have said, to prevent the carrying of oil destined for Southern Rhodesia. It had no other duty.
§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonWill the right hon. Gentleman confirm that sanctions will continue until there are proposals which are acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeWhatever I say about the future of sanctions does not after the fact that they are being seriously eroded by other people.
§ Mr. PagetWhat vital British interest is served in having Rhodesian oil imported through Lourenco Marques instead of Beira?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe hon. and learned Gentleman always puts difficult questions. This is one which it is not very easy to answer. But it is part of the sanctions bargain which was made. We are sticking to it until conditions are changed.