HC Deb 29 June 1972 vol 839 cc1685-94
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

I will, with permission, make a statement on developments in Northern Ireland.

It is clear that the ceasefire by the Provisional IRA since midnight on Monday has been effective, with no significant incidence of violence since then. During the last two days I have sensed a widespread feeling of relief among people in Northern Ireland that they may now hope to move freely about on their lawful occasions.

Yesterday I met representatives of the Ulster Defence Association. I told them that I believed that the ceasefire created new opportunities for the restoration of lasting peace and confidence under the law, and that I was indeed actively pursuing these opportunities at the present time. I explained that further steps were being taken against rate and rent strikers and that there was no question of remitting arrears of payments. I added that it was Her Majesty's Government's intention to invite Parliament to institute a plebiscite on the Border as soon as possible, but which could not be before September. I urged them not to take any major and precipitate action which could destroy the opportunity created by the ceasefire. I made my position perfectly clear to the UDA representatives, but they have since made it known that it is now their intention to erect their own barricades throughout Northern Ireland this weekend.

The danger, as the House is aware, of any precipitate action of this kind is that it will provoke a renewal of intersect Arian conflict just at the time when there was good reason to hope it had ended. I trust that those who contemplate such action may be influenced by that reflection and that good sense will prevail.

The ceasefire has brought a peace that is fragile. I feel sure that the message of the House is: let those who seek to break it reflect upon their responsibilities, and their duty to maintain the Queen's peace.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although in our view his statement of last week about the developments leading to the truce was important, it was not the end of the story of Northern Ireland—indeed, in many senses it was only a beginning—that the killings of the three days before the truce showed another aspect of it, and that the reaction of the Ulster Defence Association, given the views of the working class Protestants, was, not unexpectedly, another?

Is the Secretary of State aware that we do not support the feeling expressed today in parts of the Press that this part at least of Government policy is now running into the sands?

May I make our view clear about the Protestant no-go areas? It is that the right hon. Gentleman should react in the same low profile way to the seas he has over the weeks to those in the Bogside and the Creggan, bearing in mind that there the concept of a no-go area is not clear-cut and that they vary in different parts of the Province?

Although—properly—the House has responsibilities for the majority and the minority in Northern Ireland, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we also have a responsibility for the Army in the new situation? It is on my mind, perhaps, that the last soldier to be killed was from the city of Leeds. What is the general rôle of the Army in these post-truce days? It is as well to be absolutely clear about it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we support the steps he is taking towards free elections in December? Is he aware, however, that we have doubts about the worth of a plebiscite which will tell us what we already know and, indeed, respect? We see that it is meant to reassure the Protestants. We shall need to know more about the mechanics of it, the register on which it will be done, and what will be the question or questions to be asked. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in our view, to be meaningful the results would need to be broken down into districts? Has the right hon. Gentleman discussed this with his Advisory Council, which represents a wide variety of view in the Province?

Finally, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the best sort of election to aim for is for a Northern Ireland type Greater London Council in which a wide variety of views can be represented, aiding reconciliation and not polarisation? Will the right hon. Gentleman note that our aim must be to ensure that all views will freely be able to be expressed before either a plebiscite or, indeed, elections?

Mr. Whitelaw

No one could possibly wish to deplore more than I do the killings which took place immediately before the midnight truce. Indeed, I think that the killing which took place three minutes before midnight was one of the most distressing experiences that I have heard about for a long time.

Equally, no one on the other side appreciates more keenly than I do, or has had over the last few weeks more opportunities of appreciating, the intense feelings of frustration and anger amongst the majority community. I therefore note what the hon. Gentleman says about any proposals to put up barricades. I shall go to Northern Ireland this weekend, and I shall take great care to take note of the points the hon. Gentleman made about how barricades should be handled, because I appreciate the feelings, although I am bound to say, as is the whole House, that there are other ways of expressing those feelings.

The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right on the question of a plebiscite. The plebiscite was promised in the first instance in my right hon. Friend's statement when the new situation was created. I believe that it is needed at an early date as a reassurance to the majority community. Assurances given by this Government, and indeed by both parties in the House, have proved in many cases to be not enough. I beg those who still have doubts to believe that the clear offer of an early plebiscite must add to those assurances which have been constantly given by me, by the hon. Gentleman, and by right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House, and which are very important to the majority community.

On the question of the plebiscite and of areas, the assurance given by the House to the people of Northern Ireland is that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland will not be put into Southern Ireland against their will. That is the constitutional position of the North as it stands. So there are great problems about the course the hon. Gentleman has suggested. The details of the plebiscite will naturally be discussed in the House before that time.

Mr. Stratton Mills

I strongly join in the appeal for the speedy removal of all barricades in Northern Ireland, and I stress the very great dangers which they can cause over the coming weeks. I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said about the referendum and hope that it will be pressed on with speedily, as it will give an opportunity for legitimate political expression, which is vitally important.

Will my right hon. Friend also make it clear that the events of the four days prior to the truce coming into effect at midnight on Monday cast a very heavy shadow as to the future intentions of the Irish Republican Army and that the bulk of the people of Northern Ireland are particularly apprehensive about this point?

Finally, may I direct my right hon. Friend's attention to the events in Duncairn Gardens late on Monday night, when gunmen shot seven of my constituents, one of whom subsequently died, and to the heavy level of attacks that have been taking place on the people in this area and in the area of Old park and the Crumlin Road.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the remarks he made about the barricades and for the helpful way he put the matter. I fully support what he said. I am determined to play my part on one set of barricades and very determined to succeed in doing so. I therefore hope that others will not go up

It should be remembered that after the plebiscite there will be the local government elections. I believe that they present an important opportunity for electoral expression as well.

Of course I understand that the events of the four days before the truce cast doubts and apprehensions. Nevertheless, I still maintain, as I believe that the House maintains, that any opportunity for peace, however fragile, should be taken and should be given every possible chance to succeed. I am well aware of the events which took place in Duncairn Gardens, in my hon. Friend's constituency. I saw one of the local councillors for this area at the City Hall when I was seeing the Lord Mayor only yesterday.

This gives me an opportunity to answer another point raised by my hon. Friend. I certainly pay great tribute to the resolution, courage and skill of the security forces. I have done so before and wish to do so again. Their task in these circumstances, above everything else, is to keep the peace and prevent the sort of intersect Arian conflict which I fear was what happened in Duncairn Gardens.

Dr. David Owen

While not wishing in any way to disturb the fragile peace which exists, and congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the measure of bipartisanship which he has been able to secure, may I urge him to go steadily on the question of a plebiscite and to consider having the local elections before any plebiscite? Many hon. Members on both sides of the House are anxious about the plebiscite and do not wish any steps to be taken which would prejudice a long-term solution of this difficult problem.

Mr. Whitelaw

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. There will be an opportunity to discuss the plebiscite and its details in the House. The majority of the community in Northern Ireland have had a great deal of suffering in the last three years. Their fears that they were to be sold into a united Ireland and about the moves which were taken by the House may be understandable, but were absolutely without foundation. They need positive reassurance, and this is one of the ways in which we can give it. My word, and the word of every hon. Member, has been and will be given to them over and over again. I will go on giving it. They need positive reassurance, and I understand that, although I find it difficult to accept that when one's word is not believed. However, I believe that further reassurance is necessary.

Mr. Deedes

We are well aware how intentionally provocative were certain events before the truce. Does my right hon. Friend agree how tragically ironic it would be for the people of Northern Ireland if in the week of the truce the restraint which has been so long shown under the provocation of shooting and bombing were to break down?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am bound to agree with my right hon. Friend that the restraint that has been shown in very difficult circumstances has been remarkable. I understand that as the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) said, people still have doubts. But at least there is a chance and after three years a chance is something which I do not believe there was any sign of until recent times. Such a chance now should not be thrown away.

Miss Devlin

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, when he talks about repayment of rents, that the majority of the people who have not been paying rents or rates are law-abiding people in the best circumstances, but they felt, of necessity, that it was the only peaceful gesture they could make against the internment policy? Is he further aware that the amount of money outstanding, according to his own Department, is less than £2 million—[Interruption.]—and £2 million is very little to a Tory. When the internees hopefully are released, the civil disobedience campaign could quickly be brought to an end if some form of amnesty were to be granted to rent strikers. I have already raised this matter with the right hon. Gentleman. But when he says that debts must be paid, debts must be paid on both sides. Many people interned without trial and subsequently released have the problem of no stamps having been paid for the period they were in prison, no wages, lapsed insurance policies, and loss of position on salary scales, particularly for teachers. If debts are to be paid, is the Minister aware that they must be paid on both sides?

Mr. Whitelaw

In answer to the hon. Lady, I shall deal specifically with the rents and rates strike. The amount of money outstanding is about £1¾ million. In some areas of Belfast gas and electricity payments are being withheld. In Londonderry gas and electricity payments are being paid normally. As to the reasons why I believe that this money must be repaid, the hon. Lady and the House should appreciate that in any community services have to be provided. If services are provided they have to be paid for. It would not be fair on law-abiding citizens in Northern Ireland if they were to find they had been paying all the time and other people were getting services for which they had not paid. That would not be a fair position. I should add that any arrangements for repaying the amounts owing will be most carefully and sympathetically treated, bearing in mind any question of hardship which might arise. Every care will be taken on that score. When I took over from the Stormont Government I found that under the arrangements which had been made payments were being made only by the poorest members of the community. I did not think that was a fair situation. That is why I have decided that in future deductions will also be made from salaries and fees paid from public funds. For example, these deductions will be made from the salaries of any teachers and doctors who have been withholding rents and rates. That is a fairer way of doing it.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Is the Minister aware that the people of Northern Ireland will welcome both his condemnation and that of the Labour Party spokesman of the fiendish way the IRA carried out atrocities up to the truce? Is he aware that one man in the Shankill Road area was so brutally mutilated before being murdered that his own brother-in-law was unable to recognise him, and the photograph of his injuries was so sickening that no newspaper was prepared to print it? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the people of Northern Ireland welcome the condemnation which has been given on both sides to the atrocities that took place before the truce?

Will the right hon. Gentleman also note and mark that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland will welcome the fact that those who engaged in the rents and rates strike will have to pay back what they owe?

Will the Minister give an assurance at the Dispatch Box today that traditional parades will go on as before, because a campaign is starting now to try and cry down these parades as acts of provocation? Will he also assure the House that the assurance given by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be fulfilled, and that this plebiscite will be taken of all the people of Northern Ireland? Doe she agree that the people of Northern Ireland now have a right to say that their future should be within, if they want to say it is within, which I believe they will say in overwhelming multitudes, or without the United Kingdom? Surely the time has come for the people of Northern Ireland, after all the bloodshed and the damage to their Province, to have their voice heard, and be allowed to be heard, by this House?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have said enough about the events immediately before the truce. I want to see that the ceasefire holds for the future and that peace lasts, but I note what the hon. Gentleman has said. A rents and rates strike is an almost inevitable fact in any democracy. I decided in a difficult situation that the traditional parades were felt on all sides as being traditional in Northern Ireland. Therefore, I decided to lift the ban which had been put on them by the previous Government. I believe I must trust people to carry out their traditional parades sensibly. Therefore, I am determined that the parades will go on. I also trust that those who take part in them will do so in a careful way—I am sure they will—that their stewardship will be very good, and that where any changes in route are required by the security authorities those changes will be adhered to. On that basis I am keen to see that what is a part of Northern Ireland's life should be able to go on. I have already made the position on the plebiscite clear.

Mr. Russell Johnston

The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned his meeting with the representatives of the UDA. Does he intend to get in touch with other leaders of the Protestant community during the course of this week with a view to seeking their co-operation to press for restraint? As a number of hon. Members have rightly said, it is surely a question now of being able to say to them that, having shown immense forbearance, patience and restraint throughout the violence, if there is to be hope, that patience and restraint must continue on into the fragile peace?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have had such conversations with a wide variety of people and have urged such restraint on them all. I know that hon. Members will exercise their influence in that regard as well. The leaders of the UDA who came to see me yesterday understood the position, and I understand their feelings as well.

Mr. McNamara

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that—I say this with great regret—on Tuesday a sergeant of the Gordon Highlanders was buried in my constituency, one of the last casualties in this terrible conflict? As with many casualties from his constituency, and, even more persons serving in Northern Ireland, I, perhaps more than most hon. Members, am concerned that peace should be created and should endure.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the rent and rate strike is tied up with the question of the internees and the fact that they have been denied what we would expect them to receive under normal English standards of justice? Many people on this side of the House and in the country feel that it is most important to have local government elections before a plebiscite so that a normal state of affairs can be reached quickly rather than permit attitudes about the Border, which many of us believe would recreate the previous situation, to polarise again.

Can the right hon. Gentleman make a statement not only about traditional parades in general but, above all, about the traditional parade on 12th August in Derry?

Mr. Whitelaw

On the first point about the sergeant in the Gordon Highlanders who was buried in the hon. Member's constituency, and, indeed, all the soldiers who have lost their lives in this tragic situation, the question enables me to say that I and the House have been deeply distressed also at the killing of the RUC constable in Newry on that last night. Had it not been for my duties to this House I would have gone to the funeral, but I had to come to the House and I therefore sent a representative to the funeral.

On the rates strike and its impact on internment, I must accept what the hon. Gentleman says. I simply say that I note it. I note also what he says about the importance of the local government elections and the plebiscite. From my experience as Leader of the House I know that mounting the local government elections at the right time will need considerable co-operation in all the circumstances in which we are placed in the House.

Mr. Haselhust

Can my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State say whether the existence of the barricades in the Catholic areas is the sole sticking point for the UDA, and does my right hon. Friend have any further proposals which might help to promote an atmosphere in which Catholic barricades might come down.

Mr. Whitelaw

The original requests from the UDA were, first, that violence must be ended, second, that it did not want an amnesty on the rent and rates strike and, third, that it wanted a plebiscite on the Border. The fourth was quite properly concerned about no-go areas in the Bogside and the Creggan. On three of the points which they previously raised I was at least able to say that there was a ceasefire which I believed created a new opportunity and a new situation. I said that I would take advantage of that in relation to the barricades in the Catholic areas. I was unable to tell them exactly how and exactly when, and I think that was perhaps the sticking point in our discussions.

Mr. Orme

It seems extraordinary, as the right hon. Gentleman has gone out of his way to meet the main points of the UDA, that the UDA should then threaten to create no-go areas this weekend. How representative does the Secretary of State believe the organisation to be of the Protestant community as a whole? Some of us met the Ulster Unionist Women's Association in the House of Commons earlier this week. They have extremely strong views which they expressed very forcefully. Nevertheless, we were able to discuss the future with them and not dwell on the past. In these circumstances does the Secretary of State not feel that the UDA proposals are extremely destructive at this time in the ceasefire? Has he met other representatives of the Protestant community to try to get their support?

Mr. Whitelaw

From my wide discussions with many people throughout the Protestant community I can assure the hon. Member that despite their doubts about the ceasefire, to which the hon. Member for Belfast, West referred, and despite their feelings of frustration, the overwhelming majority deeply hope that nothing will be done to disturb the very fragile peace at this stage. There are people of very extreme views with whom I have had meetings. I have to take what comes in that respect. But I understand their feelings. Nevertheless, the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland desperately do not wish to see this opportunity thrown away.