Television Licence Fee (Hansard, 28 June 1972)

§ 15. Mr. Loveridge
asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what examination he has now given to alternative systems of finding the funds raised by television licences, in view of the evasion resulting from the present system.

§ Sir J. Eden
None, Sir. My hon. Friend may not be aware that at 31st March this year the estimated rate of evasion was 5.4 per cent. compared with 12.7 per cent. in January, 1966.

§ Mr. Loveridge
We must all appreciate the improvement in the rate of detection, but is my right hon. Friend aware that the system of licensing is a temptation to many people and that the resultant use of espionage vans is alien to our way of life and repugnant to most of us? Will he therefore consider an alternative method of raising money?

§ Sir J. Eden
This is a matter to which I have referred before. The future financing of the BBC will fall appropriately in the context of decisions to be taken about the period after 1976.

§ 18. Mr. Marten
asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will extend the limited concessions for refunds of television licences to provide for the unexpired portion of the television licence of a deceased person to be repaid to his executor.

§ Sir J. Eden
No, Sir. The law is that a licence is needed before a television set can be used at all. The fee is payable when a licence is issued irrespective of the period for which the licence is needed.

§ Mr. Marten
I realise that that is the law, but I want it changed. Why on earth should not the executors of someone who has paid for a service for 12 months, and who dies very shortly after, be reimbursed for the unexpired portion?

§ Sir J. Eden
The difficulty arises in trying to keep the system of licensing as simple as possible. There are about 18 million licences and if we provided special measures of the kind my hon. Friend suggests the system would be very complex and very costly to administer.

§ Mr. Marten
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the subject on the Adjournment.

§ 28. Mr. Leslie Huckfield
asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many 5p concessionary television licence schemes are now in operation in old people's accommodation.

§ 16. Mr. William Price
asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is his latest estimate of the number of retired people who have benefited from television licence concessions.

§ 17. Mr. Meacher
asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many elderly persons at the latest available date were in receipt of television licences at concessionary rates; and what was the consequent total loss of revenue to the Exchequer.

§ Sir J. Eden
At 30th April, 1972, there were 160,211 retired people benefiting from the special television licence for old persons' homes. The approximate cost of the concession is £1.1 million. I do not know the number of separate schemes this involves or how many retired people living in ordinary accommodation benefit from the £1.25 concessionary reduction for the registered blind. Nor do I know how many other pensioners may be receiving help from local authorities towards the cost of their licences.

§ Mr. Huckfield
Does the Minister realise that this number is pitifully small when compared with the total number of old-age pensioners and that a great deal of upset and misunderstanding is caused by the drawing of the borderlines between those who get this concession and those who do not? Is it not time that we either gave this concession to all old-age pensioners or removed the charge for licences completely on production of the pension book?

§ Sir J. Eden
To give the concession to all old-age pensioners would be very expensive. There is another Question on the Order Paper about that. I am looking at the matter of anomalies with a view to seeing whether there is any possibility of making progress here. The anomalies arise simply because this is a difficult matter to resolve.

§ Mr. Costain
Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that this is a matter of very real consequence, and will he give more publicity to the terms on which licences are issued?

§ Sir J. Eden
The main way of helping elderly retired people is through the cash grant of the retirement pension—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and, as the House will know, this has been very carefully attended to during the past two years and substantial increases have taken place. I am sure this is the right way to proceed.

§ Mr. Harper
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that on 13th June lat year, in Standing Committee on a Private Member's Bill sponsored by one of his hon. Friends, an Amendment was moved and carried by seven votes to six to allow this 5p concessionary fee to all old people living on retirement pensions? In the name of justice, will he see that this is done?

§ Sir J. Eden
Hon. Gentlemen are very free to use the expression "in the name of justice", and I understand that they feel strongly on a matter of this kind, but I think they must recognise that the total cost of the pension increases and related benefits over the last two years has gone up by more than £1,000 million. This is the way to deal with this problem, because it leaves choice to individual beneficiaries.

§ Mr. Marten
While recognising that, if there are too many concessions on the licence fee, of course the licence fees would have to be increased, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he could make a start by giving a concessionary fee to old-age pensioners who are given supplementary benefit? This would be a limited and worthy group.

§ Sir J. Eden
If one were to pursue that line of reasoning one would have to recognise that there are people other than the elderly who draw supplementary benefit.

§ Mr. English
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many on this side of the House at least who appreciate the logic of his reasoning, but does he not realise that the 5p concessionary licence is in itself a source of immense irritation to old people not living in old people's homes but living in conditions far worse and who are almost totally dependent on television, for which they have to pay the full licence fee?

§ Sir J. Eden
Yes, I recognise the force of what the hon. Member says.