GENERAL PROVISION FOR REPEAL AND AMENDMENT

HC Deb 27 June 1972 vol 839 cc1279-96

Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

I beg to move Amendment No. 467, in page 6, line 13, at end insert: Provided that no provision affecting the Safeguarding of Employment Act 1947 of the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall be so made otherwise than in pursuance of a resolution of each House of the Parliament of Northern Ireland". In the White Paper dealing with the Treaty of Rome the Government said that for Northern Ireland they had sought a five-year transitional period before the application of the Community's requirements on free movement of labour.…We have also stated that it may well be necessary towards the end of the five years to consider whether, and if so what, further special measures will still be needed. That was incorporated in the treaty, which provides in paragraph VII, dealing with social policy, on page 154 of Volume II, that Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shall have the right to retain, up to and including 31 December 1977, their national provisions requiring a prior authorization for immigration into Ireland and Northern Ireland of nationals of the other Member States for the purposes of taking up employment and/or for access by such nationals to employment in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I have raised this point relating to the Safeguarding of Employment Act on other occasions, most recently on 14th June, when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said in reply to the debate on the Question "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill": So I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that there is no difficulty about the position up to 1977, and we have made it perfectly clear that we may need to revert to this and provide for an extension of the Safeguarding of Employment Act, 1947. This is well understood by the Community and I think that we are in a good position to defend our interests in that regard."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1972; Vol. 838, c. 1588.] What concerns the Ulster Members is the use of the word "may" in "we may need to revert to this". My hon. and learned Friend states that this is well understood by the Community, but there is nothing which I can find in the treaty or elsewhere where this is made binding upon the Community. This is a matter of vital interest to the Republic of Ireland, which is seeking to join the Common Market at the same time. I am concerned in case in 1977 it uses what powers it will then have to block any attempt by the United Kingdom to extend this provision for a further five years.

I welcome the assurance of my right hon. and learned Friend, but I am concerned about the possibility that a change in Government or even in Ministers may mean that this assurance would lose some of its strength. I am concerned about the powers that other countries may have to prevent this country from extending the Safeguarding of Employment Act.

We in Ulster suffer from heavy unemployment which runs between 8 per cent, and 11 per cent. It has been persistently heavy ever since the war. It is caused basically by the run-down in our main industries, the agriculture industry on which we are mainly dependent in Northern Ireland, and also heavy industry, shipbuilding in particular. As a result of mechanisation and automation the number of people employed in these industries in Ulster has been decreasing and continues to decrease at a high rate, in spite of improvements in productivity. This throws a lot of men on the labour exchange. They must be absorbed by the industries we already have and by new industries which we hope to attract.

Unfortunately, as a result of the terrorist campaign over the last three years, industry has been badly damaged in Northern Ireland. Many firms have been destroyed, their premises literally blown up by the terrorists. As a result, many jobs have been lost. In addition, our ordinary firms which would have expanded in the last two or three years have not been able to do so. We normally hope to attract industry providing for about 20,000 to 30,000 new jobs a year, but these have not been coming to Northern Ireland because of the troubles.

We all welcome the ceasefire which occurred last night and hope it will lead to a period of peace. However, it will be a considerable time before we get back to normal, and even then "normal" for us is a state of heavy unemployment. It will be more than five years, I venture to suggest, before we are in a position to do without the legislation in the Safeguarding of Employment Act. It will take many years to rebuild our industries, to recreate confidence in Northern Ireland and to tackle the main problems behind the disturbances with which we are plagued in Ulster. Therefore, I view the position as provided by the Government in their negotiations as unsatisfactory. Other provisions covering other matters have been dealt with by protocol with, for example, New Zealand and Norway and the question of sugar. Here the long-term future has been kept open. I would refer to Protocols Nos. 17, 18 and 20. With Northern Ireland there is no such protocol; there is nothing to protect us in the long run.

The situation is that under Clause 2 the provisions relating to the Safeguarding of Employment Act will come to an end automatically in 1977. Hence the wording of the Amendment, and I thank those who have helped me in drafting it. The Amendment is to be inserted in Clause 4 so that there would not be an automatic ending of the safeguarding of employment legislation. The Safeguarding of Employment Act and its provisions would remain in existence in Northern Ireland unless a Resolution to the contrary were passed by each of the two Houses of Parliament in Northern Ireland. Those Houses are now in suspension, but the Government have promised that they will be restored at the end of the year, and I sincerely hope that they will keep their promise.

Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

That is not true.

Mr. McMaster

This Amendment is essential to protect Northern Ireland's position.

I am further concerned in view of certain statements which have been made in Dublin. It is suggested that the safe- guarding of employment legislation will remain in Northern Ireland only for the transitional period of five years and that there will be no question of it being renewed. There is a conflict of evidence here between what my right hon. and learned Friend has told me from the Front Bench and what has been openly said in Dublin to be the effect of Britain and the Republic of Ireland becoming members of the Common Market.

This is a vital matter for the welfare and well-being of Northern Ireland and one which has political implications, dealing with the rights of people who may be attracted from the South of Ireland to Northern Ireland. I am not dealing with those who may want to come from the south of Italy; I am much more concerned with those who may want to make the short journey across the border. These people will have full voting rights in Northern Ireland and they could easily upset the delicate political balance in a way which could lead to a revival of terrorist activity. This is an additional reason for the concern with which people living in Northern Ireland view the prospect of Britain joining the Common Market without some further protection.

I ask my right hon. and learned Friend with all the force that I can summon to consider accepting this Amendment in the light of the promises he has already made to Ulster Members. Let him give us the assurance that what he has said in the House will be written into legislation. I know that his assurances are in HANSARD but who, in five or six years' time, will look back to see what was said in HANSARD? In any event, what binding force will it have? This is a matter of great concern in Northern Ireland. We are extremely disappointed that it has not been incorporated in a protocol to the treaty, as have many other matters. In the light of these facts I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to consider amending Clause 4 so that this point will be properly met.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I join with my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) in pleading with the Government, if they will pay heed to pleas, to think again and accept this reasonable Amendment which is moved in the interests of all in Northern Ireland.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has said that he has made it clear to the Community that there may be a need to revert to the Safeguarding of Employment Act after the end of 1977. He says that the Community will—perhaps I should not say "will"—or may accept this. However, there is no assurance and, from the way in which the members of the Community already work and behave, when our time comes to seek help from it on 1st January, 1978, I doubt whether many people will be willing to assist Northern Ireland, which is a country like Scotland on the periphery of the Community. I fear that Ulster, like Scotland, will suffer once it enters the Community.

Therefore, it is right for hon. Members from Northern Ireland to express their concern and plead with the Government to agree to the Amendment. The heed which the Community has taken of my right hon. and learned Friend's remarks is not binding in any way. It is not binding on the Eire Government, whose politicians are on record as saying that the Safeguarding of Employment Act will come to an end, after the transitional period, at the end of 1977.

I agree with what my hon. Friend has said about the Government's negotiations. I am not permitted to go outside that, but the Government's negotiations on this matter are far from satisfactory. The Government were able to obtain longer periods of protection for other interests. I forget what protection was given to the fishing industry, but certainly other interests have received considerable protection. It is not unreasonable for charity to begin at home with the protection of the people of Northern Ireland.

Ulster has suffered heavily from unemployment. This is a curse which will remain with us for a considerable time. We have had our industries in Ulster blasted by the IRA terrorists, who have tried to bring our community to its knees. It will be a considerable time before we are able to bring the economic life of the community back to what it was before and, indeed, to go ahead and improve upon it so that we can wipe out unemployment, which is a terrible curse for any land to bear. It is a problem which causes distress to everyone inside the Province. The violence which the IRA has displayed has effectively deterred a number of potential employers from setting up businesses in Northern Ireland.

The Government should be mindful of the situation, although I readily accept that they have been generous and will be generous in providing financial assistance. None the less, it is ridiculous to believe that the pumping in of millions of pounds will help Northern Ireland if the Safeguarding of Employment Act comes to an end. Once the Act comes to an end the people from the Republic will be able to flow across the border into Northern Ireland.

8.15 p.m.

Stormont has spent tens of millions of pounds on new industries, incentive schemes, rate relief for new factories and industrial training. Since the suspension of Stormont on 24th March, the House has sanctioned £39 million for Harland & Wolff, £107 million for development in Londonderry,£50 million for the Northern Ireland Finance Corporation and £18½ million for the accelerated building programme. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has announced another building programme which is under construction. We hope that these schemes will have an impact on the 10 per cent. unemployment rate. They are vast sums of money, and the British taxpayer will not tolerate a situation in which hundreds of millions of pounds are to be spent in Ulster without the assurance that the people of Northern Ireland will benefit.

The Safeguarding of Employment Act gives the assurance that only the people of Ulster will benefit. The money has not been provided to create employment opportunities for people from Eire. That would defeat the whole purpose of the various financial aid schemes which exist to solve the unemployment problem.

It should be remembered that the Safeguarding of Employment Act was brought in after the war to try to deal with a sad situation. There was no conscription in Northern Ireland during the war; therefore it was easy for people from the Republic to cross the border, knowing that they would be safe from conscription. Although many people from the Republic joined the Forces, a considerable number of people from Northern Ireland did so, too. When they came back, as their forebears came back after the 1914–18 war, their jobs had been taken by people from the Republic who had set up homes there. They had no jobs to go to and there were no new homes to go to. Thus, having fought the war for democracy, they found that they were facing the dole in Northern Ireland. That was their payment.

I ask the Government to look at this matter—I appreciate that the Government are reluctant to accept Amendments, but there is need of a Report stage on this very important Bill—and to think in terms of the human situation in Northern Ireland and what the cessation of the Act will mean for the people in Northern Ireland and the loss of their jobs to people in the Republic and, perhaps, their homes as well. Therefore, I ask the Government not only to help by pumping money into Northern Ireland but also to accept the Amendment and ensure that the Safeguarding of Employment Act will remain in effect after 1977, which would give the Ulster people time to make the transition from poverty and unemployment to a prosperous community. After the transition I trust that for a long time Ulster will be a prosperous and peaceful part of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Rafton Pounder (Belfast, South)

I do not propose to detain the Committee for more than a few moments. It is not my intention to duplicate the points which have already been well expressed by my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) and Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder).

From my experience in Belfast, talking to people in various walks of the commercial life of the community, one of the points which I have found throughout recent months to have occupied their concern and attention more than any other aspect of the EEC negotiations and of the present Bill is the Safeguarding of Employment Act.

One of the matters which have frequently been raised in debates on Northern Ireland in the House has been the fact, which is perfectly true, that the average wage rates in Northern Ireland are slightly lower than they are for corresponding industries on this side of the Irish sea. If we were to add to that the free mobility of labour which would almost certainly flow across the border in the event of no protection to employment in Northern Ireland being granted, bearing in mind that wage rates in the Irish Republic are considerably lower than in Ulster, we would have the makings of continuing a depressed economic situation in Northern Ireland, and depressed wage rates would certainly continue as there would be no incentive for them to alter. Indeed, far from making the best use of the generous financial assistance which has been given to Northern Ireland in recent years, we would be continuing and perpetuating, virtually in-building, a fairly high unemployment rate.

I realise that under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, Northern Ireland was not granted treaty-making powers. I am not suggesting that we should draw up our own arrangements in Northern Ireland vis-à-vis the EEC. That is not the case.

What is the problem? My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East raised part of the issue. I shall take the other part. We have been told that there is a guarantee of the continuance of the Act until the end of 1977, when it may need an extension. That causes uncertainty, which is regrettable. But, even more important, is: who will determine whether an extension is necessary?

The White Paper was not clear on this matter. The parliamentary assembly in Northern Ireland is obviously the best judge whether the economic situation in the Province justifies an extension for a further period. Bearing in mind that the Safeguarding of Employment Act has been essential for over 20 years and adding to that the problems which have inevitably arisen economically in the past three years as a consequence of terrorist activity, I should think that even at this stage it would be patently obvious that the five years already granted will be shown to be palpably inadequate.

The worst possible thing is for Northern Ireland to be put in the position that pertains in Southern Italy, where a special unemployment problem exists and the period of extension given has been virtually on a grace and favour basis. I understand that it has now been going for 13 years. We want something slightly clearer and crisper than, "We will see how it goes, and perhaps we can extend the period for another five years or on an annual basis." We must have it clearly stated that the minimum period will be, say, 10 years and thereafter can be reviewed on a fixed term of years. That would be a matter for the Parliament or whatever legislative assembly returns to Northern Ireland in the course of the next 12 months. I warmly commend the Amendment to the Committee.

Mr. James Molyneaux (Antrim, South)

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), I feel that this is not a sectarian matter in any shape or form. The fact that Opposition Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies have not added their names to the Amendment and are not present should not lead anyone to the conclusion that this is a one-party consideration. Indeed, it is a bread-and-butter matter. It is concerned with freedom from want. As such I know that it will particularly appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite, many of whom have concerned themselves with the problems of unemployment and social conditions generally in Northern Ireland. We are grateful for their support on many occasions.

It has been the widely held view that somehow or other the unrest in Northern Ireland has been due, at least in some measure, to social conditions and unemployment. That is not a view to which I subscribe. It is not a major factor but, unfortunately, many people take that view. If so, they are bound to feel that the very possibility of ending the Safeguarding of Employment Act, even in five years' time, will do a great deal to perpetuate the conditions and the consequences which they so greatly fear.

Finally, I suggest that the people in the best position to judge whether the Safeguarding of Employment Act should be renewed at the end of the five-year transitional period are the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland in their own Parliament at Stormont. They are in day-to-day contact with their constituents and with people generally in industry. I submit therefore that they are in the best position to judge and should have the right to decide.

The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Paul Channon)

I am sure the whole Committee is well aware of the great importance to Northern Ireland of the Safeguarding of Employment Act, 1947, and in particular of the keen efforts of my hon. Friends who have raised this subject not only on this occasion but in the past in protecting, as they see it, the interests of their constituents both in and outside the Committee.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) about the need to build a peaceful and prosperous community in Northern Ireland. It is the responsibility of all to try to do what we can to achieve that object. It would not be in order for me this evening to go into the steps necessary to achieve that end but I certainly understand the fears which have been expressed about the Act.

Although we all know of the appalling toll which has been taken in Northern Ireland during the past three years of terrorist activity, the Committee should be aware—Iam sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) is—of the astonishing resilience of that community despite the ghastly attacks which have been made upon it.

My hon. Friend must not paint too black a picture. I have spent most of the afternoon trying to persuade businessmen to invest in and to buy goods from Northern Ireland. I have told them how, despite the ghastly things which have taken place there, Northern Ireland industry has been comparatively little harmed and is able to deliver goods on time and that production is possible. Although my hon. Friend was right to paint the difficulties which lie ahead, it is astonishing and gratifying to note the resilience of the community despite the appalling difficulties it has had to face in the past.

My hon. Friend has raised the future of the Safeguarding of Employment Act, 1947. I accept that the important question is the future of the Act but I should point out that the Amendment, if carried, would not be relevant to Clause 4. The Clause deals with the general provision for repeal and amendment so far as it relates to the later Clauses or, indeed, the paragraphs of Schedule 4.

As I understand the Bill, it does not relate in any way to the question of the Safeguarding of Employment Act. Therefore, even if we wished to accept the spirit of the Amendment this would not be the place for it, because Clause 4 does not relate to that portion of the Bill which is concerned with this topic. I do not make much of that point but I think it is worth making.

Mr. Kilfedder

My hon. Friend indicates that he accepts the spirit of the Amendment which we are putting forward. That is what I was assuming. I therefore ask, even if this is not the appropriate place, whether my hon. Friend would put forward or assist us in putting forward an Amendment which would preserve the safeguarding of Employment Act for Northern Ireland.

Mr. Channon

I am afraid my hon. Friend has misunderstood the extent of my sympathy. I do not think that any such Amendment is necessary. All I am saying as a preliminary is that, even if it were necessary, Clause 4 would not be the place in which it would be appropriate to have any such Amendment.

The Committee will know that Her Majesty's Government and successive Governments have been deeply concerned about the unemployment problem in Northern Ireland and, as my hon. Friends have said perfectly clearly, they have been giving very generous help and assistance to Northern Ireland. This will continue, because it is the wish of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that as far as possible we should give sufficient assistance to Northern Ireland to help to overcome its deep-seated unemployment problems, which are extremely acute and have been for a very long time.

8.30 p.m.

It is for that very reason that my right hon. and learned Friend, during the discussions leading up to the signing of the treaty, negotiated the derogation which is given in paragraph 144 of the White Paper "The United Kingdom and the European Communities". My hon. Friend quoted from that or some other document relating to this, I think. My right hon. and learned Friend has made clear again and again and as recently as last week the feeling that Her Majesty's Government have about the importance of this matter and how there will be no difficulty whatever about the position up to 1977. Full consultations will certainly take place when the position is reconsidered prior to renewed negotiations, which may prove to be necessary when we are a member of the Community and are approaching the terminal date of the Safeguarding of Employment Act if the derogation is not to be continued. At that time it will be a matter for Her Majesty's Government, in consultation with those representing Northern Ireland, to decide whether or not a further extension of the derogation is necessary and right. That will be the appropriate time for Her Majesty's Government to put forward the suggestion to the European Communities that there should be an extension of the derogation.

My right hon. and learned Friend has made quite clear the very great importance he attaches to this matter. We are certainly prepared to revert to it within the institutions of the enlarged Community at the appropriate time, but that will depend both on the situation in Northern Ireland and on what progress has been made by the Community in regional policy generally. It is far too early now, on 27th June, 1972, to say that we know for certain what the situation will be at the end of 1977 and to decide tonight that it is essential that there be a further period of derogation, when the initial period has not even begun.

So I do not think I can help my hon. Friends as much as I would like because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Pounder) pointed out, the Parliament of Northern Ireland has never had the power to make treaties; that has always been a matter which has been referred, rightly or wrongly, to the United Kingdom Parliament. It is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament to consider the interests of all sections of the United Kingdom, including a most important section of it, the Northern Irish community, and their views and feelings on this particular matter.

My right hon. and learned Friend has made it clear that we shall certainly take very seriously the views that have been expressed and will not hesitate to put this point of view to the Community at the appropriate time should circumstances in Northern Ireland indicate that it is right so to do. My right hon. and learned Friend gave an assurance to the Committee last week and assurances have been given on many occasions in the past on this particular matter.

Mr. Powell

I wonder whether my hon. Friend would be good enough to answer this question. As he has just said, my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said on 14th June: we may need to…provide for an extension"— that is, after 1977— of the Safeguarding of Employment Act, 1947."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1972; Vol. 838, c. 1588.] I would ask my hon. Friend whether such a need would be regarded as a vital national interest and, if so, what would be the effect of the use of a veto?

Mr. Channon

It would be wrong for me to answer what I think my right hon. Friend would concede at this stage is a wholly hypothetical question.

Mr. Powell

No.

Mr. Channon

I cannot now tell whether it will be necessary to have an extension of the safeguards of the 1947 Act. Nor can I tell now whether it will be regarded as a vital matter at the appropriate time. I cannot add to what my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said—that we may need to refer to this again and provide for an extension of the safeguards. This is well understood by the Community and we are in a good position to defend our interests in this respect. That is our ultimate protection, particularly for Northern Ireland.

I assure the Committee that the Government consider this to be an extremely important matter. They will bear in mind the views of Northern Ireland and will consider the situation in plenty of time, so that if further derogation is necessary negotiations can begin at the appropriate moment.

I hope that in the light of the assurances I have given and, more important, in the light of those given by my right hon. and learned Friend and other Ministers on many occasions, my hon. Friends will feel, while not wholly satisfied, at least that the Government are determined to safeguard the interests of Northern Ireland.

Mr. McMaster

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply and I am glad that he and my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have sat throughout the debate, which we consider to have been most important. I am not completely satisfied with the reply. This is a fundamentally important matter not only to Ulster but to the United Kingdom as a whole for the reasons we have advanced. It should have been covered in the Bill or by a protocol to the treaty. However, I welcome some of the assurances I have received, particularly those which my right hon. and learned Friend gave me a week ago. In view of those assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill: —

The Committee divided: Ayes 259. Noes 249.

Division No. 248.]	AYES	[8.40 p.m.
Adley, Robert	Bowden, Andrew	Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)	Braine, Sir Bernard	Chichester-Clark, R.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)	Bray, Ronald	Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)	Brinton, Sir Tatton	Clegg, Walter
Astor, John	Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher	Cockeram, Eric
Atkins, Humphrey	Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)	Cooke, Robert
Awdry, Daniel	Bruce-Gardyne, J.	Cooper, A. E.
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)	Bryan, Sir Paul	Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick
Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord	Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M)	Cormack, Patrick
Batsford, Brian	Buck, Antony	Costain, A. P.
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton	Burden, F. A.	Critchley, Julian
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)	Butler, Adam (Bosworth)	Crouch, David
Benyon, W.	Campbell, Rt. Hn. G.(Moray & Nairn)	Crowder, F. P.
Berry, Hn. Anthony	Carlisle, Mark	Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Biggs-Davison, John	Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert	d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Blaker, Peter	Cary, Sir Robert	d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)	Channon, Paul	Dean, Paul
Boscawen, Robert	Chapman, Sydney	Deedes. Rt. Hn. W. F.
Dixon, Piers	Kershaw, Anthony	Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward	King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)	Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Dykes, Hugh	King, Tom (Bridgwater)	Redmond, Robert
Eden, Sir John	Kinsey, J. R.	Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)	Kirk, Peter	Rees, Peter (Dover)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)	Kitson, Timothy	Rees-Davies, W. R.
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)	Knight, Mrs. Jill	Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Emery, Peter	Knox, David	Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Eyre, Reginald	Lambton, Lord	Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy	Lamont, Norman	Ridsdale, Julian
Fidler, Michael	Lane, David	Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)	Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry	Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)	Le Marchant, Spencer	Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles	Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)	Rost, Peter
Fookes, Miss Janet	Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)	Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Fortescue, Tim	Longden, Sir Gilbert	Scott, Nicholas
Foster, Sir John	Loveridge, John	Sharples, Richard
Fowler, Norman	Luce, R. N.	Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Fox, Marcus	McAdden, Sir Stephen	Shelton, William (Clapham)
Fry, Peter	MacArthur, Ian	Simeons, Charles
Galbraith. Hn. T. G.	McCrindle, R. A.	Skeet, T. H. H.
Gibson-Watt, David	McLaren, Martin	Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)	Maclean, Sir Fitzroy	Soref, Harold
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)	Macmillan.Rt.Hn.Maurice (Farnham)	Speed, Keith
Glyn, Dr. Alan	McNair-Wilson, Michael	Spence, John
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.	McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)	Sproat, Iain
Goodhart, Philip	Maddan, Martin	Stainton, Keith
Goodhew, Victor
Gorst, John	Madel, David	Stanbrook, Ivor
Gower, Raymond	Mather, Carol	Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)	Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald	Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Gray, Hamish	Mawby, Ray	Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Green, Alan	Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.	Stokes, John
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)	Meyer, Sir Anthony	Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.	Mills, Peter (Torrington)	Tapsell, Peter
Grylls, Michael	Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)	Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Gummer, J. Selwyn	Miscampbell, Norman	Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Gurden, Harold	Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)	Tebbit, Norman
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)	Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)	Temple, John M.
Hall, John (Wycombe)	Money, Ernle	Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.	Monks, Mrs. Connie	Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)	Monro, Hector	Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Hannam, John (Exeter)	Montgomery, Fergus	Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Harrison, Brian (Maldon)	More, Jasper	Tilney, John
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)	Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)	Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Haselhurst, Alan	Morrison, Charles	Trew, Peter
Havers, Michael	Mudd, David	Tugendhat, Christopher
Hawkins, Paul	Murton, Oscar	van Straubenzee, W. R.
Hayhoe, Barney	Neave, Airey	Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Heseltine, Michael	Nicholls, Sir Harmar	Vickers, Dame Joan
Hicks, Robert	Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael	Waddington, David
Higgins, Terence L.	Normanton, Tom	Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Hiley, Joseph	Nott, John	Ward, Dame Irene
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)	Onslow, Cranley	Warren, Kenneth
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)	Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally	Wells, John (Maidstone)
Holland, Philip	Osborn, John	White, Roger (Gravesend)
Holt, Miss Mary	Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)	Wiggin, Jerry
Hordern, Peter	Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)	Wilkinson, John
Hornby, Richard	Page, John (Harrow, W.)	Winterton, Nicholas
Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia	Parkinson, Cecil	Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)	Percival, Ian	Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)	Peyton, Rt. Hn. John	Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Hunt, John	Pike, Miss Mervyn	Woodnutt, Mark
Iremonger, T. L.	Pink, R. Bonner	Worsley, Marcus
James, David	Price, David (Eastleigh)	Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)	Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.	Younger, Hn. George
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)	Proudfoot, Wilfred
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)	Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis	TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jopling, Michael	Ouennell, Miss J. M.	Mr. Bernard Weatherill and
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith	Raison, Timothy	Mr. Kenneth Clarke.
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
NOES
Abse, Leo	Baxter, William	Brown, Bob (N'c tle-upon-Tyne,W.)
Allaun, Frank (Salford,	Bonn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood	Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)
Allen, Scholefield	Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)	Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch S F'bury)
Archer, Peter (Rowley	Bidwell, Sydney	Buchan, Norman
Armstrong, Ernest	Bitten, John	Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Ashley, Jack	Bishop, E. S.	Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Ashton, Joe	Boardman, H. (Leigh)	Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Atkinson, Norman	Body, Richard	Cant, R. B.
Bagier, Gordon A. T.	Booth, Albert	Carmichael, Neil
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)	Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur	Carter, Ray (Birmingham, Northfield)
Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)	Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)	Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Clark, David (Colne Valley)	Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)	Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)	Jones, Dan (Burnley)	Pendry, Tom
Cohen, Stanley	Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)	Pentland, Norman
Concannon, J. D.	Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)	Perry, Ernest G.
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)	Kaufman, Gerald	Pounder, Rafton
Cronin, John	Kelley, Richard	Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony	Kerr, Russell	Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard	Kilfedder, James	Prescott, John
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)	Kinnock, Neil	Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)	Lambie, David	Price, William (Rugby)
Davles, Ifor (Gower)	Lamborn, Harry	Probert, Arthur
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)	Lamond, James	Rankin, John
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)	Latham, Arthur	Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Deakins, Eric	Leadbitter, Ted	Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey	Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick	Rhodes, Geoffrey
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund	Leonard, Dick	Richard, Ivor
Dempsey, James	Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold	Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Doig, Peter	Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)	Robertson, John (Paisley)
Dormand, J. D.	Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)	Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)	Lomas, Kenneth	Roper, John
Douglas-Mann, Bruce	Loughlin, Charles	Rose, Paul B.
Duffy, A. E. P.	Lyon, Alexander W. (York)	Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Eadie, Alex	Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)	Rowlands, Ted
Edelman, Maurice	Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson	Sandelson, Neville
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)	McBride, Neil	Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Edwards, William (Merioneth)	McCartney, Hugh	Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Ellis, Tom	McGuire, Michael	Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
English, Michael	Mackenzie, Gregor	Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Evans, Fred	Mackie, John	Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Ewing, Harry	Mackintosh, John P.	Sillars, James
Faulds, Andrew	Maclennan, Robert	Silverman, Julius
Fell, Anthony	McMaster, Stanley	Skinner, Dennis
Fisher,Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)	McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)	Small, William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)	McNamara, J. Kevin	Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)	Maginnis, John E.	Spearing, Nigel
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)	Mahon, Simon (Bootle)	Spriggs, Leslie
Foley, Maurice	Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Hudderslleld, E.)	Stallard, A. W.
Foot, Michael	Marks, Kenneth	Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Ford, Ben	Marsden, F.	Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Forrester, John	Marshall, Dr. Edmund	Strang, Gavin
Fraser, John (Norwood)	Marten, Neil	Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Freeson, Reginald	Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy	Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Gilbert, Dr. John	Mayhew, Christopher	Swain, Thomas
Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)	Meacher, Michael	Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Golding, John	Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert	Tinn, James
Gourlay, Harry
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)	Mendelson, John	Tomney, Frank
Griffiths, Eddie (Brlghtside)	Mikardo, Ian	Torney, Tom
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)	Millan, Bruce	Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)	Miller, Dr. M. S.	Urwin, T. W.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)	Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)	Varley, Eric G.
Hamling, William	Moate, Roger	Wainwright, Edwin
Hardy, Peter	Molloy, William	Walden, Brian (B'm'ham. All Saints)
Harper, Joseph	Molyneaux, James	Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis	Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)	Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Heffer, Eric S.	Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)	Wallace, George
Hilton, W. S.	Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)	Watkins, David
Horam, John	Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)	Weitzman, David
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas	Moyle, Roland	Wellbeloved, James
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)	Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick	Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Huckfield, Leslie	Murray, Ronald King	White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)	Oakes, Gordon	Whitehead, Phillip
Hughes, Mark (Durham)	Ogden, Eric	Whitlock, William
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)	O'Halloran, Michael	Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Hughes, Roy (Newport)	O'Malley, Brian	Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Hunter, Adam	Oram, Bert	Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Hutchison, Michael Clark	Orme, Stanley	Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)	Oswald, Thomas	Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Janner, Greville	Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)	Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas	Paget, R. T.	Woof, Robert
Jeger, Mrs. Lena	Palmer, Arthur
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)	Panned, Rt. Hn. Charles	TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
John, Brynmor	Parker, John (Dagenham)	Mr. Walter Harrison and
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, w.)	Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)	Mr. James A. Dunn.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.