CHILDREN BILL [Lords] (Hansard, 14 June 1972)

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Paul Dean)
I beg to move, That the Chairman do now report to the House that the Committee recommend that the Children Bill [Lords] ought to be read a Second time. The sole purpose of this little Bill is to prevent the minimum age at which schoolchildren may undertake part-time employment outside industry from going up from 13 to 14 in September. The Bill does not affect in any way the total pro- 1692 hibition of the employment of children of compulsory school age in factories, workshops or mines. It is solely concerned with the sorts of jobs which children commonly do for brief periods before and after school, and for limited hours in the school holidays—for instance. the delivery of morning and evening newspapers. In doing these jobs they have to comply with a number of statutory restrictions, and they must also comply with local byelaws. I will not dwell on these restrictions and byelaws because this Bill does not affect their operation in any way. It is solely concerned with the statutory minimum age.
There has been since 1918 a provision, first in the Education Acts and then in the Children Acts, prescribing a minimum 1693 age for all forms of employment not governed by a more stringent limit. Until 1944 this age was fixed at 12, but the Education Act, 1944, which provided that the school leaving age should be raised from 14 to 15 and eventually to 16, provided also that the minimum age for employment should be raised in parallel with any rise in the school leaving age, and so when the school leaving age was raised to 15 in 1947 the minimum age for employment automatically went up to 13. This year, on 1st September, when the school leaving age goes up to 16, the minimum age would, if nothing were done, rise again automatically to 14.
The previous Government clearly had doubts about whether this was right, because they announced early in 1970 that they would be undertaking a review of the whole of this branch of the law, with particular reference to the effects which raising the school leaving age would have on it. When we came into office we agreed that this was a useful exercise and decided that it should go ahead.
Accordingly, towards the end of 1970 a consultative document was issued to a wide range of representative bodies and everyone interested was invited to send in comments. In particular they were asked to express a view on whether or not the minimum age for employment ought to rise from 13 to 14 when the school leaving age was raised.
Overwhelmingly, the view of those consulted was that it would be a mistake to let this happen.
Let me say straight away that there were a few dissentients. For instance, the teachers' organisations were pretty evenly divided for and against the idea that the minimum age might be fixed at 13, and the T.U.C. was totally opposed to the idea, but I think I am being fair in saying that this opposition appeared to be directed to the employment of children in general and made no real case relating specifically to the position of children between the ages of 13 and 14.
By contrast, most of the organisations, 44 out of the 53 which commented, thought that the minimum age should remain fixed at 13 and they used some very strong arguments in favour of this. 1694 Part-time work done by 13-year-olds outside school hours and in accordance with the law, for the last 25 years, seems not to have brought them any harm physically, morally or educationally. Indeed, there have been signs of a developing view that such work is commonly of positive value in encouraging independence, initiative and responsibility. Attitudes towards children's part-time jobs have become more flexible over the years, and children themselves are generally recognised to be maturing progressively earlier. Holiday jobs in particular are regarded in many parts of the country as a desirable remedy for lack of spare time interests among 13-year-olds. The Government found the arguments in favour of retaining a minimum age of 13 convincing.
That is the background to this small Bill. We have also announced our intention to introduce legislation to improve and standardise the regulatory framework for administering this branch of the law, in particular the substitution of regulations for the present control by local byelaws which give rise to differing practices in different parts of the country, but that is a bigger issue and must wait till time can be found for it, whereas the question of the minimum age must be dealt with now. I accordingly ask the Committee to recommend that the Bill ought to be read a Second time.

§ Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)
I agree with the reasons of the Under-Secretary of State for putting this Bill forward. I made inquiries of the Inner London Education Authority. So far as I can see, there is no evidence of abuse, and no reason why the status quo should not be maintained. I think there is some concern among teachers that children sometimes come to school tired because they are doing work outside school hours, but I gather that the real cause of that is working in a family business—for example, serving in a sweet shop or working on a stall owned by the parents. Whether one alters the law or not, it is extremely difficult to eradicate any abuse there might be there. Generally speaking I agree that there is no abuse.
I agree that work which, under the law, children are permitted to do. makes for independence and responsibility. To 1695 some extent I am prejudiced. I did a paper round from the time I was 12 on wards, and I was a pheasant plucker—

§ Mr. Ernest G. Perry (Battersea, South)
A what?

§ Mr. Fraser
—in the constituency of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams). My own experience is that it leads to a good deal of independence. One learns to manage money at an early age.
To deny them these activities would be a blow to many children who remain

THE FOLLOWING MEMBERS ATTENDED THE COMMITTEE:
Brewis, Mr. (Chairman)	Monks, Mrs.
Bray, Mr.	Perry, Mr. Ernest G.
Dean, Mr.	Rhys Williams, Sir B.
Fortescue, Mr.	Stokes, Mr.
Fraser, Mr. John	White, Mr. Roger
Gourlay, Mr.	Whitlock, Mr.
McMillan, Mr. Tom