INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT ADVISORY BOARD (Hansard, 31 July 1972)

§ Mr. Biffen
I beg to move Amendment No. 26, in page 10, line 17, leave out 'section 8' and insert 'sections 7 and 8'.
I understand that with this we are also discussing Amendment No. 28, in page 10, line 26, leave out 'section 8' and insert 'sections 7 and 8'.
3.0 a.m.
Those of my hon. Friends who are making a re-acquaintance with this Bill for the first time since Second Reading may not realise that it has acquired an entire new Clause. In Committee we added new Clause 9 which concerns the Industrial Development Advisory Board. That body will have a watchdog function over the expenditures of my right hon. Friends under Clause 8.
As with a great deal else in the Committee where one was concerned with safeguards, we are indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Adam Butler), who was responsible for the new Clause. I think that he will agree that the anxieties which had been expressed by a number of interests outside this House led to the development, and some of those anxieties were expressed in lurid forms. I have in mind especially the comments of Mr. Michael Clapham of the CBI, who said: No reasonable citizen would invest in a company whose Articles were so loosely drawn, and we, as citizens acting collectively, would be unwise to approve them … Without some such amendment the Bill would confer a degree of political patronage undreamed of since the Reform Bill of 1832. Even by the standards of protest from trade associations, that is language which errs on the side of the harsh. New Clause 9 is helpful corrective and apparently has had a considerable impact in assuaging the fears expressed by the CBI.
The purpose of my Amendment is to extend it beyond Clause 8 to cover Clause 7 as well. This comes back to a point which has been made repeatedly this 263 evening and was made especially on the series of Amendments included with No. 56 which questioned the validity of the distinction that we have tried constantly to draw between Clauses 7 and 8. It is a distinction which has become increasingly difficult to sustain, and I am certain that that was the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop).
We can draw a distinction, of course. We can say that Clause 8 is limited in time and in the finance which is made available to my right hon. Friends, whereas Clause 7 has no limit either in time or in the amount of finance that can be expended under its provisions.
The regulating bodies foreseen in Clause 7 are the non-statutory regional advisory boards. The very nature of those boards will make them evangelists for public expenditures in their areas. Therefore we might be less than discreet if we were to regard them as satisfactory regulating bodies. I hope, therefore, that the Industrial Development Advisory Board which is set up under Clause 9 can have its limited but useful powers extended to cover Clause 7 as well as Clause 8.
That conclusion is all the more reinforced by the recent publication of the Sixth Report of the Expenditure Committee. In consideration of regional policy, the Committee had some fairly important and challenging comments. I quote only from paragraph 265 of the Report: … we examined some broad aspects of social and regional assistance. That is precisely the kind of expenditure which will be made under Clause 7. The report continued: We consider that far too little information is available to Government on the effectiveness of regional incentives. Large sums are being spent with inadequate knowledge of how far they are contributing towards the desired objectives or whether the money could be better spent on alternative means of reaching them. I think that the political reality is that there is as likely to be a non-fulfilment of objectives under Clause 7—the regional aspect of the Bill—as there are likely to be those conditions under Clause 8. Therefore, I think it would be a modest but useful amendment if the advisory board could have its powers extended to that extent.

§ Mr. Chataway
I am happy to accept both these Amendments. In Committee, as my hon. Friend said, we wrote into the Bill provisions for the National Advisory Board. It had always been intended that the regional boards and the national board should play an important rôle. The primary responsibility for advising on Clause 7 will rest with the regional boards, but the national board will be concerned with regional strategy as a whole and with some of those very large cases that fall to be dealt with in the regions. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that my hon. Friends should press us to recognise this in the rôle that is to be played by the national board.
I would not, however, wish it to be thought that this in any way diminishes the importance of the regional boards by virtue of the fact that they are not written into the Bill. We have explained on previous occasions why they have not been. The fact remains that the regional boards have a vital rôle to play.
My hon. Friend was right to say that Mr. Michael Clapham had criticised the Bill in somewhat robust terms at an earlier stage. He wrote the other day to say that he was well satisfied with the changes and that his expressions of public approval would receive the same publicity as the earlier criticisms.

§ Sir Harry Legge-Bourke (Isle of Ely)
Does not Clause 8(1) bring in Clause 7 anyway?

§ Mr. Chataway
Clause 8(1) refers back to Clause 7. But the point at issue is that, as the Bill stands at present, the board would have a statutory responsibility only in relation to national schemes—Clause 8 schemes—and not Clause 7 schemes in the regions.

§ Mr. Douglas
I noticed that when the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) was prefacing his remarks with a quotation, he quoted from a newspaper.

§ Mr. Biffen
No.

§ Mr. Douglas
He was quoting from a Press release then?

§ Mr. Biffen
To get the record straight, I was quoting from the Press release 265 issued by the Confederation of British Industry, which was headed: Excerpts from a speech to be made by Mr. Michael Clapham, President of the Confederation of British Industry at the annual luncheon of the CBI South Western Regional Council at the Grand Hotel, Bristol, on Thursday, 15th June, 1972.

§ Mr. Douglas
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that information. I take it that I have the same Press release, which says on page 2: The CBI will of course be proposing some amendments to provide guidelines for the use of the money and requirements for reporting the return on it. I am therefore interested to know whether the CBI saw the manuscript Amendment before hon. Members did.

§ Mr. Chataway
The answer is "No".

§ Mr. Douglas
I am grateful to the Minister for that information.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell the House what stage has been reached in the setting up of the national and regional boards. The Minister is giving the national board power to review the assistance given under Clause 7. I do not know whether the non-availability of personnel on the national and regional boards will in any way hold up schemes that are likely to be in the pipeline. It is therefore appropriate, even at this early hour in the morning, to ask the Minister whether he can report to the House the state of progress in the setting up of these boards.

§ Mr. Chataway
I do not want to trespass too much on the time of the House. I realise that it would be difficult to go all the way that the hon. Gentleman asks, but I hope within two weeks to announce all the members of the national board. We are making good progress with the regional boards, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be no hold up in the implementation of the Bill because of any delay in appointing members to the boards.

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
I welcome my right hon. Friend's decision to accept the Amendments, not least because I do not find what my right hon. Friend said in Committee at column 609 about the composition of the regional boards totally reassuring. I have some sympathy with the argument advanced by my hon. Friend about the attitude which the re- 266 gional boards might be expected to adopt, and therefore I am glad that the Industrial Development Advisory Board is to have its remit extended to Clause 7.
I must, however, enter a caveat before we leave these Amendments. It is that we should not assume too readily the ultimate powers of the Industrial Development Advisory Board contained in Clause 9(4), which is the nub of the issue. In other words, the board can, in effect, oblige the Secretary of State to come to the House and explain a disagreement when it arises. Where the Secretary of State decides to act in a manner which the board thinks is undesirable, we should not imagine that these fall-back powers provide an unlimited assurance.
It is proposed that the authority of the board should be extended to Clause 7. One must, therefore, ask what attitude the board would have adopted to the Upper Clyde escapade. One can imagine that, ideally, it would say, rather as the Hill Samuel report said, "If you wish to do it you must explain your reasons to the House of Commons, as we do not think it is commercially justifiable".
But I wonder. I suspect that the gentlemen whose names my right hon. Friend will be announcing, as he has said, shortly as members of the board—those on the famous lists of the great and the good—will be as human as their fellows have been in previous times. There is always the knighthood ahead, or the life peerage, and there must be some reservation about the extent to which they will be prepared to press their doubts to the point of obliging my right hon. Friends to come to the House, against their inclinations, on a point of dispute.
I enter that brief caveat that we should not expect too much of these boards, but for what they are worth, and for what it is worth, I welcome these powers being extended from Clause 8 to Clause 7.

§ Mr. Dell
I beg to move Amendment No. 51, in page 10, line 22, after 'in', insert 'regional problems'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this Amendment the House can also discuss Amendment No. 27, in page 10, line 22, 267 after industry', insert trade union affairs'.

§ Mr. Dell
I am not at all sure that I would not have been well advised to ask some hon. Member on the other side of the Chamber to move the Amendment. Hon. Members are being so incredibly successful with their Amendments and the Government are accepting them so readily that it might be better if I were to whisper the arguments in their ears. For example, the Government have just accepted the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), but when I asked in Committee why Clause 9 would not apply to Clause 7 I was given a whole list of reasons, as will be seen in column 612 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, why it should not be done. Now it is to be done.
The point of the two Amendments is the qualifications of the members of the board. Subsection (3) says: The members of the Board shall include persons who appear to the Secretary of State to have wide experience of, and to have shown capacity in industry, banking, accounting and finance. Those gentlemen are to advise the Secretary of State on his functions under Clauses 7 and 8.
We think that the qualifications are not adequately inclusive. For example, as we suggest in Amendment No. 51, there are regional problems, but there is nothing in subsection (3) to suggest that the members of the board shall include persons with experience of regional problems. Yet the right hon. Gentleman has just accepted an Amendment which gives the Industrial Development Advisory Board a similar status in relation to Clause 7 as it has to Clause 8.
Were the coverage of the Industrial Development Advisory Board under Clause 9 to be limited to Clause 8, it might have been an argument that there was no need for some member of the board with specific experience of regional problems, but now that the right hon. Gentleman has accepted his hon. Friend's Amendment there is even more reason than there was before that there should be someone with such experience. We did not know when we put down the Amendment that the right hon. Gentleman would reject the arguments reported in column 612 of the Committee Report 268 in order to accept those of his hon. Friend tonight, but now he has done so I hope that he will realise that the implication of that acceptance is that he should accept Amendment No. 51.
Amendment No. 27 refers to experience of trade union affairs. I do not know whether the Minister has assumed that the words … wide experience of … shown capacity in industry … shall be taken as including experience and capacity in trade union affairs. In the wording of the subsection it does not look like it. The grouping of words there, industry, banking, accounting and finance seems to imply that the Minister was thinking of the management of industry rather than people with experience of trade union affairs. Therefore, we should like to see that qualification as another which the Secretary of State will have to take into account in making appointments to the Industrial Development Advisory Board.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be as amenable to these Amendments, from the Opposition side of the House, as he has been to Amendments from the Government side.

§ Mr. Chataway
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) will know of the acute anxiety I have displayed throughout the Committee and Report Stages to accept Amendments wherever possible from both sides of the Committee and the House. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that his advocacy in Committee was at least half responsible for my acceptance of the previous group of Amendments.
But, try as I may, I do not feel able to recommend these Amendments to the House. That is not because I am out of sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman argued, but because the Amendment to insert "regional problems" poses a difficulty. What kind of person has a knowledge of all regions? If one talks about regional problems in general, presumably one is not looking just for someone who comes from, for instance, the North-East, but for someone who knows of all or a large number of regional problems. If one interpreted it as the problems of one region, there would not be a great deal to be said for being wider an obligation always to 269 appoint such a person to the national board. Those are qualities that we would look for, among others. But as this is a statutory obligations, I hesitate to write in that quality.
On the point about trade union affairs, I am advised that "industry" means management, trade union affairs and everything else. Therefore, I would not particularly recommend to the House that those words should go in, though I am happy to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that our interpretation would be experience of all sides of industry and not just of management. I have explained previously that it would not be our intention to appoint anyone in a representative capacity, but for appointments to these boards we should certainly be looking for people with experience of trade union affairs.

§ Dame Irene Ward
I am certain that the appointments which will be made will be very satisfactory in that those concerned will have the necessary knowledge of the regions and regional problems. As the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) asked about trade union representation, I should like to know whether some members of my sex will be included. The knowledge and experience of regional problems among women is of very great importance. My right hon. Friend says that these will be people with a regional knowledge. May I express the hope that he has not forgotten that women certainly have a knowledge of regional problems? I hope that note will be taken of that and it will be acted upon.
I am a very good feminist. I do not always argue for women. I have always thought that men have much better experience of an overall problem. This stems from their experience and knowledge in commerce, trade, travel and all the things necessary to develop a sound economy. Women are much better at filling in the detail, however, and attending to the human angle, which can very often be overlooked by men of great experience of world affairs.
I hope, therefore, that this will be remembered and that in due course I shall know that my right hon. Friend has realised the importance of regional problems by including both men of experience, integrity and knowledge and women who can add the human element which 270 men, in their desire to serve the big economy and the big world, are apt to forget about.

§ Mr. Chataway
While I take note of what my hon. Friend said, there is perhaps a difficulty in hoping for too many women on the boards which are concerned principally with financial appraisal. Bank accounting and finance is an area in which one may be forced more often than in other areas to appoint males. I entirely accept, however, what my hon. Friend said about the importance of women being involved in the administration of the Bill. She will be heartened to know that, for the first time ever, we have a lady as a regional director in one of the regions, the North West.

§ Mr. Dell
I am grateful to the Minister for what he said about Amendment No. 27. It is obviously more important that such an appointement should be made than that it should be written into the Bill, and that is evidently the right hon. Gentleman's intention. As to regional problems, I had in mind somebody with experience of the nature of regional problems not necessarily in a specific area.
However, I will not press the Amendment because I am ever hopeful that the Minister, particularly as a result of his answer on a previous Amendment and the expansion of the boards' coverage in Clause 7, will think further about it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Millan
I beg to move Amendment No. 52, in page 10, line 23, at end insert— '(4) The Board shall make an annual report of its activities, and the report shall be published and presented to Parliament'. The Amendment would insert into Clause 9 an obligation on the part of the Industrial Development Advisory Board to make an annual report of its activities which would be published and presented to Parliament. I assume that this is intended and also that it is intended that the Scots, Welsh and regional boards will also make annual reports. I am not sure why it should not be written into the Bill because it is normal, particularly in a Clause of this nature, that when a board of this sort is established provision for an annual report is written in.
271 I shall look forward to hearing the Minister's reply. On a previous occasion he mentioned that there would be annual reports. All that the Amendment does is to write this into the Bill.

§ Mr. Chataway
It is certainly the intention that the regional boards as well as the national boards should have the opportunity of reporting. I suggested in Committee, and I thought it met with widespread agreement, that it would probably be more convenient if this were to be done in a single document rather than with separate publications. In so far as the Amendment implies that it would be a separate report, I would on balance be against it. I reaffirm to the House that it is the Secretary of State's intention to include in his annual report opportunities for such further commentary by the national board and the regional boards as they see fit.

§ Dame Irene Ward
I am glad to hear what my right hon. Friend has said. I hope that the report or reports will say a great deal about what has gone. Over the years the constructive proposals to deal with regional problems which I and others have made to various Secretaries of State have been wonderfully received but we have not heard another word about the proposals. Although Dr. Reed, the Chairman of the Northern Economic Planning Council, came to London and made some good proposals to the then Secretary of State for Employment, the present Leader of the House, we have heard nothing about whether action has been taken. If the report is to be of benefit to the regions and is to be the follow-up of work which has been done, I hope that regional details will be included in the report.

§ Mr. Millan
In view of what the Minister has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.