HC Deb 26 July 1972 vol 841 cc1911-24

Lords Amendment: No. 14, in page 64, leave out lines 35 to 38.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

The provision for a commencement order was incorporated in the Bill on Report in this House. However, on Report in another place, it was deleted but amidst, I think I can safely say, some confusion about what was being decided. Obviously there was confusion on both sides of another place because the noble Lord who had moved the Amendment called against it. However, that is a matter for their Lordships. The fact is that the provision is needed to assist local authorities by giving them as much time as possible to prepare for the implementation of the Bill.

During the debates in this House, hon. Members have expressed concern about the amount of notice and time which Scottish local authorities will have. This provision introduces flexibility, which hon. Members have asked for, and I cannot imagine, therefore, that hon. Members opposite will wish to withdraw that flexibility. Therefore, I hope that something which happened in another place, as a result of mishap, will be put right.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I do not understand what the Secretary of State means when he talks about confusion. I cannot remember when we asked for what is provided in the three lines which the Government want to restore.

Mr. Campbell

Hon. Members have many times said that local authorities would not have enough time to implement the Bill if it were left as it was. We took action on Report to deal with this matter. Hon. Members opposite did not oppose or vote against it; it was accepted. It was something which hon. Members wanted.

Dr. Mabon

Let us get this matter right. The Bill becomes law a month after it has received the Royal Assent. Am I wrong in saying that?

Mr. Campbell


Dr. Mabon

Perhaps the Secretary of State will take the matter a stage further. The three lines which were deleted in another place allow the Secretary of State to bring certain provisions of the Bill into effect sooner than one month after it gets the Royal Assent. I do not think there are any provisions in the Bill which we are keen to have in operation two or three weeks sooner, let alone four weeks. I agree that one must not look a gift horse in the mouth, but this is carrying absurdity a little too far. If it had been proposed to delete the previous three lines, I could perhaps understand the importance of the matter, but what we are discussing is marginal.

Why should my hon. Friends and I have to refer to these matters and then get a reply from the Secretary of State? Why cannot he tell us now whether most of the Bill becomes operative one month from the time that it gets the Royal Assent?

Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)

Is not my hon. Friend aware that since the Government took office Acts have not meant anything? Has he not heard that the dockers have been released? The Government introduce Measures one day and twist them to suit themselves the next.

Dr. Mabon

I am glad my hon. Friend emphasised that, because that is exactly my hope, that we will not allow this Motion and that we agree with the Lords rather than disagree with them, and that we take out these three lines.

I cannot see the usefulness of these three lines. I do not think the Secretary of State has made a case for why these three lines ought to be restored. I quite agree that the noble lord, Lord Polwarth, in another place, got confused, and I agree that he was muddled by his own Whips. I quite agree he called the wrong phrase—

Mr. David Steel (Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles)

I really must protest at the use of this sort of phrase—"muddle", "confusion". The noble Lord is a constituent of mine and I think I am entitled to object to these phrases. The fact is—and the hon. Gentleman should appreciate this—that the noble Lord is a man of much more flexibility of mind than any Member of his side in this House and at the end of the debate he accepted the forcefulness and persuasiveness of the arguments for the Amendment and decided to accept it.

Dr. Mabon

We all know that the success of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) in this House of Commons depends on having a large number of muddled constituents, but I do not exempt Lord Polwarth from the generality of the confusion of the Borders in that regard. I must say that we must not attack every Borderer, because, after all, the Whips in another place got confused as well.

The Secretary of State is very anxious to blame one of my noble Friends in another place, but I must protest, for this was an error of the Government, and now the Secretary of State is having to redeem what he thinks was an error and redeem three lines of the Bill lost through the sheer incompetence and neglect of muddled persons.

That being so the Secretary of State ought to tell us why these three lines are important. He has not done so. All he has done from a seated position—he does not like interjections applied to him from a seated position—is to dissent from my proposition that the bulk of the Bill comes into operation within one month. This so-called flexibility Clause allows parts to come into operation before one month. That is my understanding. I am open to correction, although I am not a muddledheaded person and I do not vote Liberal or Conservative. The Secretary of State ought to reply at this juncture, because this matter is very important.

I had hoped that the Secretary of State would have taken advantage of this Lords Amendment however dubious its origins may have been. I genuinely believe that if we were deferring action of certain provisions in this Bill we would find that the irritation and resentment felt by the people would be much less, and surely it is in the interests of our country that we should not be divided any more than we are at present divided, and that we should bring people together, and this Lords Amendment could have been so used. I am only sorry that the right hon. Gentleman regards it only as an error to be corrected.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

I would rather put it another way. Would the right hon. Gentleman, when replying to the debate, confirm that there is no flexibility, there is no power in Clause 81, or, indeed, any of the Clauses, by which he can postpone operation of the Bill by more than one month?

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I will reply to the questions, by leave of the House.

I assumed that these provisions had been digested by the House when they were with us before. They were not then dissented from. I nodded when thehon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) asked me. I thought that would be confirmation for him and that I would not need to intervene again. I indicated with my head that he was right, that he was correct, that the Bill did not necessarily have to wait for a month before entering into effect because this provision allows the Secretary of State to bring it in before that and thereby give the local authorities a longer period for preparation, which was what hon. Members on the other side of the House had been asking for.

7.45 p.m.

That is the effect of these words. For some reason, Lord Hughes sought to take them out in the other place and if there was a muddle, as I pointed out, it was also Lord Hughes who was a party to it because by voice he rejected his own Amendment.

Dr. Mabon


Mr. Campbell

I hope that the representation of the party opposite in the House of Lords does not depend upon people who are muddled. So there was what I described as some confusion. I do not think there is an issue on the substance between the two sides of the House.

Although the noble Lord put down an Amendment, presumably it was a probing Amendment to find out what the effect of this passage in the Bill was, but it was one which was in the direction of meeting points that had been made from the other side of the House about the shortness of time local authorities would have had to prepare after the Bill has come into effect. I would hope that this provision would be acceptable to both sides of the House and that something which was admittedly a mishap in the other House should now be put right.

Mr. Ross

I am fascinated by the explanation of what I continue to call the Polwarth muddle. There is no doubt at all that he got up and confessed that he voted "Content". He admitted he had been wrong.

When one puts down an Amendment one hopes that the Amendment will be carried. My noble Friends in another place took the opportunity to ensure that their Amendment was carried. It is no good the Secretary of State saying people put down Amendments and do not really mean them.

After all, although this thing was first put in this House without any demur, on Report we were acting under the guillotine, and under the guillotine this was not discussed at all. So it will be, it seems, with these Lords Amendments. At 8 o'clock they will be put. We should probably like to vote against a number of them, but let it not be thought, because we do not vote against them, that we support them all. That is an error into which the Secretary of State fell.

Let us look at the merits of these few lines. The Secretary of State says that he had had drawn to his attention—he was quite right—in respect to the implementation of the Bill and the starting of the Bill, that there was a certain measure of impracticability and difficulty about them because they did not give much time.

Mr. MacArthur


Mr. Ross

I am in the middle of my speech. I have not ended yet, but I do not expect that I shall ever be able to persuade the hon. Gentleman about anything.

What we were discussing was words put into the Clause which said Except as otherwise expressly provided, this Act shall come into force at the expiration of a period of one month beginning with the date on which it is passed. Of course, one of the expressly provided dates, the earliest one, is 1st October. It is from 1st October that the new rent structure is to be applied—the most important date in the whole Bill. We constantly drew attention to the Government point of view that as things were going, and with the congestion of business in this House, even with the Government advantage of the guillotine, after Committee there would be Report, thereafter there would be Third Reading, thereafter the Bill had to go to another place, then it had to come back to us and obviously, if we took into account one month beginning with the date on which it is passed there would not be very much time left for the local authorities.

If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that by bringing the Act into operation earlier it gives more time, I do not know where his logic is. It shortens the time rather than lengthens it. We have been told that the local authorities have had since November for preparation.

We suggest that the Secretary of State should forget all about the retrospective application of rent increases which are supposed to start in October to two months before the Bill becomes law, so that £24 has to be raised in respect of every council house in Scotland, although the Bill does not become operative until 1st October. The view taken by the Secretary of State when we challenged him to tell us how he would exercise his duty was that there was time enough for that when the Bill became law. There are many local authorities who take the view that there is time enough to start implementing it when it becomes law. We suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should forget the penalty of the rent increase for the first half year. It is unjust to squeeze into seven months rent increases that apply over the whole year so that there will be a doubling up, an increase of £1 per week, for people who exercise their right to wait until the Bill becomes law. The local authority could have started to implement the Bill as it stood one month after it became law.

The Secretary of State has always said that the Bill would be passed in plenty of time, but with all the administrative work, the decisions that have to be taken and the meetings that will have to be held by the local authorities when they resume after the summer the local authorities will be unable to do it through no fault of their own and they will be in default. How does the Secretary of State get out of that? He gets out of it not by meeting the practical difficulties and the hardships but by a trick. He says, "Thanks for telling us of the difficulty; we will slip something in." The other provisions in the Bill to which no dates are attached and which will have to be exercised to make the preparations will become law within about two days. The local authorities will not have more time but the Secretary of State will have a justification for saying that the provisions are now in force, and so the local authorities will go into default more quickly.

If we had had time, we would have debated this, but even on Report we were under the guillotine, as we are now. We have reached Lords Amendment No. 14 and we have to get to Lords Amendment No. 34. Because of mistakes made by the Scottish Office there are two—Nos. 5 and 9—which should not be there at all. All the other Amendments on which we wish to comment and against which we wish to vote we have not had an opportunity to discuss.

On this Amendment we should do justice to the belated accession of wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, who obviously changed his mind, having been persuaded by my noble Friend Lord Hughes. What their Lordships decided is right, and the Amendment should be allowed to stand. It is wrong to insult their Lordships further by saying that we disagree with them. We have already corrected their grammar; why should we now throw out this valuable Amendment?

Under his default powers the Secretary of State takes unto himself the power to change the whole of the Bill. I hope that in changing the whole Bill when he puts any local authority into default he will bear in mind our advice to him to waive rent increases for 1971–72. I do not know whether he will give us an answer on how he will exercise his power. This is his Official Solicitor—his only way out. We have sought at every stage to avoid confrontation and to tell him of the follies and unfairness of the Bill. The throwing out of the Amendment will make matters worse. An official in the Scottish Office has probably persuaded him to be clever, but there will be no more time between now and October no matter what we do with the Bill. By rejecting the Amendment the Government are bringing into force provisions which would otherwise not have come into force for a month, and they justify that by saying that they have not enough time. By bringing the provisions into force earlier the right hon. Gentleman is not giving any more time; he is giving himself more time for his arguments about default.

I hope that the Secretary of State will think again. If we sit quietly perhaps the same mistakes will be made as were made in another place. I notice that the Secretary of State's enunciation was careful when he moved— That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment. Can he always trust his Whips?

Mr. MacArthur


Mr. Ross

They may trip up on this one. The Amendment is right, and it is unfair of the Secretary of State to disagree with it. He has given us very little during the passage of the Bill. On

Division No. 327.] AYES [8.0 p.m.
Adley, Robert Crouch, David Hannam, John (Exeter)
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Crowder, F. P. Harrison, Brian (Maldon)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Dalkeith, Earl of Haselhurst, Alan
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Hastings, Stephen
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Dean, Paul Havers, Michael
Astor, John Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Hawkins, Paul
Atkins, Humphrey Digby, Simon Wingfield Hayhoe, Barney
Awdry, Daniel Dixon, Piers Heseltine, Michael
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Dodds-Parker, Douglas Higgins, Terence L.
Balniel, Lord Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Hiley, Joseph
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Drayson, G. B. Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Batsford, Brian du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Dykes, Hugh Holland, Philip
Bell, Ronald Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John Hordern, Peter
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Hornby, Richard
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Benyon, W. Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Berry, Hn. Anthony Emery, Peter Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Biggs-Davison, John Eyre, Reginald Hunt, John
Blaker, Peter Farr, John Hutchison, Michael Clark
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Fell, Anthony Iremonger, T. L.
Boscawen, Robert Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Bossom, Sir Clive Fidler, Michael James, David
Bowden, Andrew Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Braine, Bernard Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Bray, Ronald Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Jessel, Toby
Brewis, John Fookes, Miss Janet Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Fortescue, Tim Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Foster, Sir John Jopling, Michael
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fowler, Norman Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Bruce-Gardyne,J. Fox, Marcus Kaberry, Sir Donald
Bryan, Paul Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) Fry, Peter Kershaw, Anthony
Buck, Antony Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Kimball, Marcus
Bullus, Sir Eric Gardner, Edward King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Burden, F. A. Gibson-Watt, David King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Kinsey, J. R.
Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Kirk, Peter
Carlisle, Mark Glyn, Dr. Alan Knight, Mrs. Jill
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Goodhart, Philip Knox, David
Chapman, Sydney Goodhew, Victor Lamont, Norman
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Gorst, John Lane, David
Chichester-Clark, R. Gower, Raymond Langford-Holt, Sir John
Churchill, W. S. Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Green, Alan Le Marchant, Spencer
Clegg, Walter Grieve, Percy Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Cockeram, Eric Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Cooke, Robert Gummer, Selwyn Longden, Gilbert
Cooper, A. E. Gurden, Harold Loveridge, John
Cordle, John Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Luce, R. N.
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick Hall, John (Wycombe) McAdden, Sir Stephen
Cormack, Patrick Hall-Davis, A. G. F. MacArthur, Ian
Costain, A. P. Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) McCrindle, R. A.
Critchley, Julian

this occasion at least he might take the advice that was given to him.

I know that we are under the guillotine, and I hope that the Under-Secretary has learned his lesson from the last time he tried to take advantage of us by wasting time until his hon. Friends came back—that was on Derby Day.

Mr. MacArthur


Mr. Ross

We certainly agree with the Lords in the Amendment.

Hon. Members


Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 288, Notes 265.

McLaren, Martin Pike, Miss Mervyn Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Pink, R. Bonner Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
McMaster, Stanley Pounder, Rafton Sutcliffe, John
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Tapsell, Peter
McNair-Wilson, Michael Price, David (Eastleigh) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)
Maddan, Martin Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Madel, David Quennell, Miss J. M. Tebbit, Norman
Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Raison, Timothy Temple, John M.
Marten, Neil Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Mather, Carol Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Maude, Angus Redmond, Robert Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Mawby, Ray Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J Rees, Peter (Dover) Trew, Peter
Meyer, Sir Anthony Rees-Davies, W. R. Tugendhat, Christopher
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Miscampbell, Norman Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon van Straubenzee, W. R.
Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Ridsdale, Julian Vickers, Dame Joan
Moate, Roger Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Waddington, David
Money, Ernle Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Monks, Mrs. Connie Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Monro, Hector Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Montgomery, Fergus Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Wall, Patrick
More, Jasper Rost, Peter Walters, Dennis
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Royle, Anthony Ward, Dame Irene
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Russell, Sir Ronald Warren, Kenneth
Morrison, Charles St. John-Stevas, Norman Weatherill, Bernard
Mudd, David Scott, Nicholas Wells, John (Maidstone)
Murton, Oscar Scott,Hopkins, James White, Roger (Gravesend)
Neave, Airey Sharples, Richard Wiggin, Jerry
Nicholls, Sir Harmar Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Wilkinson, John
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Shelton, William (Clapham) Winterton, Nicholas
Normanton, Tom Simeons, Charles Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Nott, John Sinclair, Sir George Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Onslow, Cranley Skeet, T. H. H. Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Woodnutt, Mark
Osborn, John Soref, Harold Worsley, Marcus
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Speed, Keith Younger, Hn. George
Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) Spence, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Page, John (Harrow, W.) Sproat, Iain Mr. Hamish Gray and
Parkinson, Cecil Stainton, Keith Mr. Kenneth Clarke.
Peel, John Stanbrook, Ivor
Percival, Ian Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Abse, Leo Cohen, Stanley Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Albu, Austen Concannon, J. D. Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Corbet, Mrs. Freda Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Allen, Scholefield Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Foley, Maurice
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Crawshaw, Richard Foot, Michael
Armstrong, Ernest Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Ford, Ben
Ashley, Jack Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Forrester, John
Ashton, Joe Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Fraser, John (Norwood)
Atkinson, Norman Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) Freeson, Reginald
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dalyell, Tam Galpern, Sir Myer
Barnes, Michael Darling, Rt. Hn. George Garrett, W. E.
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Davidson, Arthur Gilbert, Dr. John
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Ginaburg, David (Dewsbury)
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Davies, Ifor (Gower) Golding, John
Bidwell, Sydney Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Bishop, E. S. Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) Gourlay, Harry
Blenkinsop, Arthur Deakins, Eric Grant, George (Morpeth)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Dempsey, James Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Bradley, Tom Doig, Peter Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Broughton, Sir Alfred Dormand, J. D. Hamling, William
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Douglas-Mann, Bruce Hardy, Peter
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Driberg, Tom Harper, Joseph
Buchan, Norman Duffy, A. E. P. Harrison, Walter (Wakefield )
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Dunn, James A. Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Dunnett, Jack Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Eadie, Alex Heffer, Eric S.
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Edelman, Maurice Hilton, W. S.
Cant, R. B. Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Hooson, Emlyn
Carmichael, Neil Edwards, William (Merioneth) Horam, John
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Ellis, Tom Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) English, Michael Howell, Denis (Small Hea h)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Evans, Fred Huckfield, Leslie
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Ewing, Henry Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Sandelson, Neville
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Mayhew, Christopher Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Hunter, Adam Meacher, Michael Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Janner, Greville Mendelson, John Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Mikardo, Ian Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Jeger, Mrs. Lena Millan, Bruce Sillars, James
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Miller, Dr. M. S. Silverman, Julius
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Milne, Edward Skinner, Dennis
John, Brynmor Mitchell, Ft. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Small, William
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Molloy, William Smith, John (Lanarkshire. N.)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Spearing, Nigel
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Spriggs, Leslie
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Stallard, Ivor
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Steel, David
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda. W.) Murray, Ronald King Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Judd, Frank Oakes, Gordon Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Kaufman, Gerald Ogden, Eric Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Kelley, Richard O'Halloran, Michael Strang, Gavin
Kinnock, Neil O'Malley, Brian Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Lambie, David Oram, Bert Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Lamond, James Orbach, Maurice Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)
Latham, Arthur Orme, Stanley Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Lawson, George Oswald, Thomas Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick Padley, Walter Tinn, James
Leonard, Dick Paget, R. T. Tomney, Frank
Lestor, Miss Joan Palmer, Arthur Torney, Tom
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Tuck, Raphael
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Parker, John (Dagenham) Urwin, T. W.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) Varley, Eric G.
Lipton, Marcus Pavitt, Laurie Wainwright, Edwin
Lomas, Kenneth Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)
Loughlin, Charles Pendry, Tom Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Pentland, Norman Wallace, George
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Perry, Ernest G. Watkins, David
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. Weitzman, David
McBride, Neil Prescott, John Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
McCartney, Hugh Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
McElhone, Frank Price, William (Rugby) Whitehead, Philip
McGuire, Michael Probert, Arthur Whitlock, William
Mackenzie, Gregor Reed, D. (Sedgefield) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Mackie, John Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Mackintosh, John P. Richard, Ivor Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Maclennan, Robert Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow. C.) Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
McNamara, J. Kevin Robertson, John (Paisley) Woof, Robert
Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield. E.) Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) Mr. James Hamilton and
Marks, Kenneth Roper, John Mr. Donald Coleman.
Marquand, David Rose, Paul B.
Marsden, F. Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Marshall, Dr. Edmund Rowlands, Ted

Question accordingly agreed to.

It being after Eight o'clock, Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to designate the Lords Amendments Nos. 15 to 29 and 32, as being the Lords Amendments which appeared to him to involve questions of Privilege.

Motion made, and Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Amendments except those so designated by Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER—[Mr. Gordon Campbell]—put forthwith, pursuant to the Order this day—and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in each of the Lords Amendments designated by Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER—[Mr. Gordon Campbell]—put severally, pursuant to the Order this day, and agreed to [with Special Entries.]


That a Committee be appointed to draw up a reason to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to one of their Amendments to the Bill: Mr. Gordon Campbell, Mr. Hamish Gray, Mr. Bruce Millan, Mr. William Ross and Mr. George Younger nominated members of the Committee; that three be the quorum; and that they withdraw immediately.—[Mr. Gordon Campbell.]

Committee withdraw immediately.

Reason for disagreeing to one of the Lords Amendments, reported and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.