§ ESTABLISHMENT OF NEW AUTHORITIES IN WALES
§
Amendments made: No. 731, in page 223, line 11, after 'out', insert:
'either before or after the passing of this Act'.
§ No. 929, in page 223, line 16, leave out '28(a)' and insert '27(1A)(a)'.
§ No. 930, in page 223, line 17, leave out paragraph 3.
§
No. 986, in page 225, leave out lines 19 to 22 and insert:
'by the committee established for the area under section 252 above'.
§
No. 987, in page 225, line 31, leave out:
'the authority designated under paragraph 6' and insert:
'an authority designated by the committee established for the area of the new council under section 252'.
§
No. 988, in page 225, line 41, leave out 'as mentioned in paragraph 7' and insert:
'by the committee established for the area of the new council under section 252'.
§
No. 989, in page 226, line 3, at end insert:
'(9A) The Secretary of State may himself exercise a committee's power of designation for the purposes of any provision of paragraph 7, 8 or 9 above if he is requested to do so on the ground that the committee is unlikely to exercise the power in time for that provision to operate'.
§ No. 954, in page 227, line 31, leave out from 'councillors' to 'occurring' in line 32.
§ No. 955, in page 227, line 32, leave out 'any' and insert 'the'.
§ No. 956, in page 227, line 37, leave out from 'councillors' to end of line 38.
§ No. 957, in page 227, line 39, leave out 'any' and insert 'the'.
§ No. 958, in page 227, line 43, leave out from 'councillors' to 'occurring' in line 44.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
§ TITLE
§
Amendment made: No. 1166, in line 3, at end insert:
'to make further provision with respect to magistrates' courts committees'.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
§ [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, and Prince of Wales's Consent signified.]
§ 5.45 p.m.
§ Mr. John Silkin (Deptford)I want first, to pay tribute to the calm, courteous and industrious way in which the Minister for Local Government and Development has conducted the proceedings in these very long Committee and Report stages.
I hope the House will divorce that tribute from my views on the Bill as a whole; because to that I can pay no tribute. This Measure was derived from doctrinaire thinking in Conservative 1263 Central Office based upon a total opposition to any idea produced during the time of the Labour Government.
How much better it would have been—it was by no means impossible—to have worked out local government on an all-party basis. Instead, the doctrinaire decision to have a two-tier system at all costs, with no clear-cut division of powers, has created nothing but confusion.
The Press and the public may find it difficult to understand why we should have attached so much importance to defeating the Government on an Amendment apparently concerned with dustbins, but it was, of course, a demonstration of the unworkability of the Bill. Functions had to be given to both spheres. It did not matter particularly which got which, provided that each got something to do.
Sooner or later we shall have to move to a situation in which there is no conflict in function between one authority and another and in which distinct duties are assigned to democratic bodies not overlapping but interlocking. We shall have regional government, probably with powers devolving from central government and evolving upwards from the present system of local government. We shall have large authorities based on the experience, expertise and size of the larger
| Division No. 310.] | AYES | [5.49 p.m. |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Balniel, Lord | Higgins, Terence L. | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Benyon, W. | Hordern, Peter | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Kershaw, Anthony | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Lamont, Norman | Speed, Keith |
| Clegg, Walter | Longden, Sir Gilbert | Spence, John |
| Cooper, A. E. | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sproat, Iain |
| Crouch, David | Maddan, Martin | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Mather, Carol | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dixon, Piers | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Moate, Roger | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John | Money, Ernle | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Fortescue, Tim | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Murton, Oscar | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gower, Raymond | Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby) | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Wilkinson, John |
| Grieve, Percy | Parkinson, Cecil | Younger, Hn. George |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | |
| Gummer, J. Selwyn | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hawkins, Paul | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Mr. Michael Jopling and Mr. Marcus Fox. |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Rees, Peter (Dover) | |
| NOES | ||
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Foot, Michael | Kinnock, Neil |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | John, Brynmor | McBride, Neil |
| Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Evans, Fred | Kaufman, Gerald | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
§ county boroughs. We shall have a universal system of community councils acting right at the roots and capable of expressing individual criticism in local areas.
§ The real criticism of the Bill is that it satisfies nobody completely and succeeds in deceiving everybody. For this reason, and for so many others, I call upon my right hon. and hon. Friends to oppose the Motion.
§ 5.47 p.m.
§ The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Walker)I join the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin) in paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development for the patience with which he conducted the proceedings on the Bill in Committee and on Report.
I add to that tribute one to the right hon. Member for Deptford himself for the very objective and constructive way in which he conducted for the Opposition the proceedings in Committee and on Report. The two leaders on both sides have brought great credit to Parliament for the objectivity and statesmanlike way in which they have discussed so many controversial features of the Bill.
§ Question put: —
§ The House divided: Ayes, 65, Noes, 24.
| Mikardo, Ian | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Rowlands, Ted | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Probert, Arthur | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | Mr. Walter Harrison and Mr. Donald Coleman. |
| Richard, Ivor | Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.) |
§ Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.