Clause 198 (Hansard, 20 July 1972)

§ Mr. Brynmor John (Pontypridd)
I beg to move Amendment No. 1193, in page 138, line 1, leave out 'districts' and insert 'counties'. I understand that it will be convenient to discuss at the same time the following Amendments:
No. 1194, in page 138, line 3, leave out 'district' and insert 'county', and No. 1195, in page 138, line 5, leave out 'district' and insert 'county'.
These three Amendments refer to subsection (1) of this Clause. The effect is to insert in each case, where "district" is mentioned, the word "county". The Clause deals with the question of local opinion polls in Wales. The question of Sunday opening or closing of licensed houses is to be determined under the Licensing Act by polls which at the moment are conducted on a county basis, 988 together with the four county boroughs. There are, therefore, 17 such polls at the moment, and polls are held every seven years.
The effect of the Bill at the moment is to substitute for counties the districts of Wales. By this Bill the counties of Wales are reduced to eight in number and there are 37 districts created. As I have said, the effect will be to allow polls to take place in each of the 37 districts to determine whether a district is or is not to open its licensed houses on a Sunday.
I wish to make three short points. First, if we are to have a system of local options, as clearly we are, it should produce a system which is as easy as possible for everyone to understand, and in particular in a country like Wales, which is so heavily dependent upon tourists, it should be understandable not only by the inhabitants of Wales but by visitors.
The second point is that it should be as free of absurdity as possible, and free of the possibility of slipping over borders from a dry area into a wet area on a Sunday, as was done frequently in the case of the English border some years ago.
Thirdly, these polls should be held with a minimum of fuss and public expense.
My submission is that the placing of polls upon a district level will infringe against each of these three conditions. First, it will give 37 polls which will have a patchwork quilt of authorities, some keeping dry and others perhaps wet, and the effect upon the puzzled tourist can be imagined.
Secondly, it is not even a static position once it has been determined. Every seven years there will be further polls and there are possibilities of wet areas going dry and dry areas going wet. The consequent confusion will be marvellous to behold—to everyone except those who care for the image of Wales. We do not want to make it some sort of Ruritanian musical comedy country. It certainly infringes against the question of evasion of the Act by crossing boundaries, because it would be all too easy to cross from one district into another. Also, if conducted on a district basis, even though it be conducted under the auspices of the new counties, it will create disproportionate expense.
989 If the eight counties were to be charged with the duty of carrying out these polls, we would have uniformity of licensing law over wide areas of the country, a sensible arrangement which everyone will readily understand, and it would be done at a minimum of public expense.

§ The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. David Gibson-Watt)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) for putting the argument for the Amendments so shortly and clearly. I remember in Committee his right hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) raising Amendments which were roughly similar, and I promised to write to him afterwards, which I did. We again looked at this matter very carefully.
I am the first to admit that this is a matter of no unanimity. For instance, the Association of Municipal Corporations, say the opinions in their Welsh Committee are divided, though there was a majority of two-thirds to one-third in favour of polls being conducted on the basis of the new counties, which the hon. Gentleman wants. The County Councils Association and the Welsh Counties Committee are in favour of polls being held on a county basis, too. But the alliance between the UDCA, the RDCA and the temperance organisations favour the provisions within the Bill. Therefore, we in Parliament have to decide in the light of this very contradictory advice.
The main reason for the present provision is to enable choice to be exercised locally. I remember that when the present Lord Butler was Home Secretary I was one of those who advised him on the question of local option in Wales. It was thought then that the emphasis must be on "local". The number of new counties will be less than half the present number of counties and county boroughs, whereas there will be 37 new districts. But one does not get a poll if it is not requisitioned by 500 persons, and in the Newport County Borough last time there was not such a poll.
It is desirable to adhere to the principles of the 1964 Act that polls should be held on the basis of the new districts. It may be suggested that this will produce a patchwork of wet and dry districts. I think this possibility is more theoretical than real. If one considers the new dis- 990 tricts and relates them to the results of the polls in 1968, it is clear that the areas likely to remain dry are mainly the new districts based on the present counties.
Having discussed this in Committee, and having looked at it again very carefully, I have to say that the view of my right hon. and learned Friend and of myself is that this Amendment cannot be accepted.

§ Mr. John
I must confess to being disappointed by that answer. It seems to me that although it needs a requisition of 500 voters, that will certainly occur almost everywhere in Wales, and therefore we are likely to be faced with the prospect of having 35 or 36 polls every seven years. However, as the Bill will be considered in another place, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The next Amendment is No. 662.

§ Mr. Roger Moate (Faversham)
Before dealing with this Amendment, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I seek your guidance on Amendment No. 1168, in Schedule 30, page 339, column 3, leave out lines 55 to 59 and insert 'Sections 5 and 6'.
That Amendment has not been selected, but it is consequential on Amendment No. 662 and I wondered whether we could take them both together?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Yes.

§ Mr. Moate
I beg to move Amendment No. 662, in page 138, line 33, leave out from beginning to 'shall' in line 34 and insert 'sections 5 and 6'.
This is a simple point and it is un-controversial, and I hope, therefore, that it will prove acceptable.
Under the Bill the power to issue cinematograph licences is transferred from the county councils to the new district councils. They in turn have the power to delegate this function to the justices sitting in petty sessions. The effect of the Amendment is to remove that latter power of delegation.
It is the view of those experienced in these matters that the powers should be administered by the local authority itself, 991 the authority which has the experience and the technical officers to judge these matters. It is felt that they are the bodies best suited to administer the powers, rather than have it done in court. Where objections to licences arise, it is found that magistrates will often, quite understandably, decline to become involved in the inevitable technicalities, and in cases of difficulty they may tend to apply strict rules of evidence, which is not necessarily the best way of tackling a matter which is essentially one of practical and technical significance.
It is a minor point, but I hope that the Government will accept the Amendment.

§ Mr. Carlisle
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) for the way in which he has presented the Amendment. As he says, the effect is to bring to an end the existing power of cinema licensing authorities to delegate their functions to the justices. The original reason for having a system of licensing was to provide power to the appropriate authority to ensure that adequate safety precautions were taken, but the power to issue a licence includes a wide power to attach conditions to it, and, as a result, the licensing authority is enabled to exercise control over the content of films shown in the public commercial cinema in the area. This is now the basis of the existing system of film censorship in this country.
The Government agree with my hon. Friend that it is anomalous that censorship powers should in some cases be delegated to justices instead of being retained in the hands of the elected representatives of the community. It is essentially a policy matter. It is felt that it is right that the elected council members should be regarded as the body capable of reflecting the view—from time to time the changing view—of the people in a local community.
We have discussed the matter in consultation with the County Councils Association, the Magistrates Association and Justices Clerks Society. They all support the case which my hon. Friend has so succinctly and eloquently argued, and I have pleasure in accepting the Amendment.