§ ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCE AND FINANCIAL LOSS ALLOWANCE
Mr. Deputy SpeakerWe come now to Amendment No. 744 and with this Amendment, it will be convenient to discuss the following Amendments:
§ No. 870, in page 106, line 41, leave out from 'duty' to end of line 43.
§ No. 649, in page 106, line 43, at end insert—
- (2) The amount prescribed under subsection (1) above may be prescribed by reference to any period of twenty-four hours.
- (3) The amount of any allowance determined by a local authority under subsection (1)
§
No. 648, in page 107, line 10, at end insert—
( ) At any time before the expiry of the period of four weeks beginning with the day on which this section comes into force or the day on which he comes into office, whichever is the later, an alderman of a local authority may by notice in writing served on the proper officer of the authority elect to be treated for the purposes of this section as eligible for an attendance allowance instead of a financial loss allowance; and where an alderman has made such an election, then, during the period beginning on the day of the service of the notice and ending when he ceases to be an alderman, he shall be treated for the purposes of this section as though he were a councillor.
and the sub-amendments thereto:
§
No. 650, in page 107, leave out lines 11 to 13 and insert:
'A member of a parish or community council shall not be entitled to any payment under this section in respect of the performance as such a member of an approved duty within the'.
§
No. 652, in page 107, line 24, leave out from 'exceeding' to 'parish' in line 27 and insert:
'in the case of travel for the purpose of an approved duty within the United Kingdom, such rates as may be specified by the Secretary of State.
(2) A member of a parish or community council shall not be entitled to any payment under this section in respect of the performance as such a member of an approved duty within the'.
§
No. 1060, in page 109, line 6, leave out from 'established' to second 'joint' in line 8 and insert:
'by schemes for the time being in force for any area for the purposes of section 88 of the General Rate Act 1967;
§
No. 623, in page 109, line 6, leave out 'under' and insert:
'by schemes for the time being in force for the purposes of section 88 of'.
§
No. 775, in page 109, line 13, at end insert:
'by one of its members or by any other person'.
§ No. 655, in page 110, line 20, leave out '170'.
§ Mr. Arthur JonesI beg to move Amendment No. 774, in page 106, line 39, leave out 'who is a councillor'.
We spent some time in Committee dealing with attendance allowance, financial loss allowance, travel and subsistence matters.
The purpose of the Amendment is to try to ensure that those who get the benefit of the new attendance allowance should also include co-opted members of the local authorities. I do not think that this is the case at present, or under the Amendments which are down in the name of my right hon. Friend. I think there is equity in the point I am making, and I make it on behalf of the Greater London Council which is, of course, concerned with the continuity of the services of aldermen and co-opted members of the various committees of that authority. I myself am not at all sure whether the income tax element in these benefits is fair to those who are entitled to them, and I should like my right hon. Friend's comments, and his assurance if he can give it me, in that respect.
§ Mr. Graham PageI will deal first with Amendment 649 and the group of Amendments to Amendment 649, and also Amendment 870.
Amendment 649 is designed to give local authorities freedom to decide for themselves what rate of attendance allowance is appropriate to their local circumstances and how it should be apportioned according to the time of day or the duration of the approved duty, subject only to the limitations, first, that the total amount paid to anyone councillor in any period of 24 hours must not exceed a prescribed limit, and, secondly, that the authority must not discriminate between types of councillor or between classes of approved duties.
There was considerable discussion on this subject in Committee, where it was suggested that councillors might be embarrassed by fixing their own allowances. We did, subsequent to the Committee, consult the local authority associations on this subject, and they felt there would not be any embarrassment. We, therefore, tabled this Amendment again, 331 leaving the councils to fix the allowances, subject to the limitations I have mentioned.
The Amendments to Amendment 649 would have the effect of making the rate of attendance allowance a statutory £5 a day, instead of leaving it to be determined by the local authority within the limits prescribed by the Secretary of State. I must resist the Amendments to the Amendment. It would be most inadvisable, first, to try in a Statute to fix the rate of allowance; and the Amendments to the Amendment would take away the responsibility of local authorities to determine within the prescribed limits, the rate of allowance which they consider most appropriate. I would ask the House to leave the position as it is set out in Amendment 649.
§ 5.15 a.m.
§ I think you also included in the grouping, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Amendment No. 648, which has the effect of giving aldermen a choice between claiming the attendance allowance available to councillors and the financial loss allowance available to other members of public bodies who are at present subject to the local government allowances code. We earlier discussed the aldermen. The Bill abolishes the aldermanic system throughout the country except in London, where it will continue for a few years after 1974.
§ An alderman sitting next to a councillor on the Greater London Council will be in the awkward position of finding that he is entitled to a lower allowance than the councillor. There are problems of taxation on this, and it seemed right to give the alderman a choice as to the form of allowance he claims. Some aldermen may find it beneficial to claim the attendance allowance despite the consequential tax liability on their travel and subsistence allowances. One cannot say that an alderman is working in two places as one can with a councillor. He does not represent a ward or constituency and therefore he has only one place of business.
§ An alderman who travels long distances and is already subject to high rates of income tax might prefer to retain the present tax-free financial loss travel and subsistence allowances. So we give him the choice according to whether he travels 332 long distances or pays a high rate of tax. It is a most unfortunate position in tax law, but I have to adjust the local government law to the taxation law.
§ There are Amendments which nullify the purpose of Amendment No. 648, and I am unable to advice the House to accept them. I have forgotten the remainder of the Amendments which are grouped together. Will you be kind enough, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to repeat them, so that I know how many I may deal with while I am on my feet?
Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe group I read out, which I understand to be the agreed group, consists of Amendments Nos. 870, 649 and sub-Amendments, 648 and sub-Amendments, 650, 652, 1060, 623 and 655. Do I understand that the group should also include No. 755?
§ Mr. Arthur JonesI asked that Amendment No. 755 be deleted.
§ Mr. Graham PageAmendment No. 650 is purely a drafting Amendment, and I ask the House to accept it as such.
Amendments Nos. 651, 652, 653 and 654 proved that travel and subsistence allowances payable for journeys outside the United Kingdom shall not be subject to the limits prescribed by the Secretary of State for those allowances in respect of all other journeys. The first two of those Amendments give effect to this in respect of normal approved duties. The third and fourth of those Amendments remove any doubt that the same principle applies to attendances at conferences and meetings held outside the United Kingdom for which the authority has decided to pay the discretionary allowances provided for in Clause 171.
This was mentioned in Committee, and it is certainly the Government's wish to see local authorities playing their full part in European affairs and having the power to allow travel and subsistence allowances for journeys outside the United Kingdom. Those Amendments provide for freedom in that respect.
§ Mr. MaddanWe are discussing only Amendment No. 652, and not that group of four Amendments. I hope that the fact that we are discussing only Amendment No. 652 will in no way nullify the 333 good news my right hon. Friend has announced to the House, but if that is so, perhaps we may take the other Amendments.
§ Mr. PageI am sorry if I have overstepped the mark. I have Amendments Nos. 651, 652, 653 and 654 grouped, and they all deal with very much the same matter. If they were not called, I wonder whether they could be dealt with together.
Amendment No. 774 seeks to entitle aldermen to the attendance allowance payable under subsection (1) instead of the financial loss allowance payable under subsection (2). What I described as being achieved by Amendment No. 648 will give aldermen a choice between the two allowances. This is not a matter—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but it would be right to point out at this stage that Amendments Nos. 651, 653 and 654 were debated with Amendment No. 642.
§ Mr. PageI am obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was referring to something which had already been debated in order to include Amendment No. 652, which we have not touched on.
Returning to Amendment No. 774, as I explained in dealing with Amendment No. 648, the payment of a taxable attendance allowance to aldermen will entail their subsistence and travel allowances becoming liable for tax as well. Many aldermen could be worse off than they would be with the tax free financial loss allowance. So the best thing to do is to give them a choice, as Amendment No. 648 gives.
I hope that I have dealt with all the Amendments. There are one or two Amendments which I shall wish to move when they are reached.
Mr. R. C. MitchellAmendment No. 774 deletes the words "who is a councillor". Surely that is not meant to refer only to aldermen. I assume that it was also meant to refer to co-opted members of the council.
§ Mr. Arthur Jones indicated assent.
Mr. MitchellThat is a very important point. There are many co-opted members all over the country who play a very 334 valuable part in the affairs of local government on education committees, health committees and numerous other committees. It would be reasonable for these people, who have to stay away from work and lose time, and so on, to be paid an attendance allowance as well as councillors if taking part in committees.
§ Mr. Graham PageI have taken the point made by the hon. Gentleman. I shall try to find the answer before we leave the House this morning.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Amendments made: No. 649, in page 106, line 43, at end insert:
- (2) The amount prescribed under subsection (1) above may be prescribed by reference to any period of twenty-four hours.
- (3) The amount of any allowance determined by a local authority under subsection (1) above may vary according to the time of day and the duration of the duty, but shall be the same for all members of the authority entitled to the allowance in respect of a duty of any description at the same time of day and of the same duration.
§
No. 648, in page 107, line 10, at end insert:
( ) At any time before the expiry of the period of four weeks beginning with the day on which this section comes into force or the day on which he comes into office, whichever is the later, an alderman of a local authority may by notice in writing served on the proper officer of the authority elect to be treated for the purposes of this section as eligible for an attendance allowance instead of a financial loss allowance; and where an alderman has made such an election, then, during the period beginning on the day of the service of the notice and ending when he ceases to be an alderman, he shall be treated for the purposes of this section as though he were a councillor.
§
No. 650, in page 107, leave out lines 11 to 13 and insert:
'A Member of a parish or community council shall not be entitled to any payment under this section in respect of the performance as such a member of an approved duty within the'.—[Mr. Graham Page.]