Clause 100 (Hansard, 17 July 1972)

HC Deb 17 July 1972 vol 841 cc235-44 235

§ ADMISSION OF PUBLIC AND PRESS TO LOCAL AUTHORITY MEETINGS

§ Mr. Graham Page
I beg to move Amendment No. 778, in page 64, line 13, leave out from beginning to first 'the' in line 14 and insert: (1) For the purpose of securing the admission, so far as practicable, of

§ I suggest, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we might conveniently discuss at the same time Amendment No. 779, in page 64, line 14, leave out from 'all' to end of line 15 and insert:

§ meetings of committees of local authorities as well as to meetings of local authorities themselves, the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 (in this section referred to as "the 1960 Act") shall have effect subject to the following provisions of this section.

§ (2) Without prejudice to section 2(1) of the 1960 Act (application of section 1 of that Act to any committee of a body whose membership consists of or includes all members of that body) section 1 of the 1960 Act shall apply, subject to subsection (3) below, to any committee appointed by one or more local authorities under section 102 below, not being a committee falling within section 2(1) of the 1960 Act.

§ (3) Without prejudice to subsection (2) of section 1 of the 1960 Act (power of body by resolution to exclude public from particular meetings) the local authority or authorities who appointed a committee to which that section applies by virtue of subsection (2) above may, by resolution, exclude the public 236 from meetings of the committee during such period, ending not later than twelve months after the resolution is passed, as may be specified in the resolution, if they are of the opinion that, with respect to much the greater part of the business likely to be transacted at meetings of the committee, publicity for the meetings would be prejudicial to the public interest—

(a) by reason of the confidential nature of the business, or
(b) for other special reasons stated in the resolution and arising from the nature of the business or of the proceedings at which the business will be transacted;

and where such a resolution is passed, the 1960 Act shall not require meetings of the committee to be open to the public during the period specified in the resolution.

§ (4) Subsection (3) of section 1 of the 1960 Act (need to receive or consider recommendations from outside sources a special reason for excluding the public) shall apply in relation to subsection (2) above as it applies in relation to subsection (2) of that section.

§ (5) Where section 1 of the 1960 Act applies to a committee by virtue of subsection (2) above, then, for the purposes of subsection (4)(c) of that section, premises belonging to the local authority or one or more of the local authorities which appointed the committee shall be treated as belonging to the committee'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
Yes, and also, I suggest, the following:

§ No. 272, in page 64, line 13, leave out 'unless otherwise decided by a majority vote'.

§ No. 245, in page 64, line 14, after 'vote', insert 'at that meeting'.

§ No. 516, in page 64, line 15, at end insert— Provided that it will suffice for the purposes of this section that such a decision is made yearly by the Council at its annual meeting in respect of its committees or, alternatively, by such committees themselves (in the absence of a decision by the Council at its annual meeting) at the first meeting of any committee following the annual meeting of the Council.

§ Mr. Page
At present, I am moving No. 778, an important Amendment, and perhaps I shall discover what the rest are a little later.
Amendments Nos. 778 and 779 substantially rewrite Clause 100 in the form of an extension of the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act, 1960, so as to include all committee meetings of local authorities. At the end of the 51 or 52 sittings of the Committee, I was pleased to be able to advise the Committee to accept a new Clause, which now appears as Clause 100, and it was accepted as an earnest of our belief in the principle of 237 more open government. I explained at the time that the new Clause was not quite adequate for the purpose and would need considerable amendment.
Looking at the matter between the Committee stage and now, we discovered that the best way to deal with it is to extend the 1960 Act. The House will recall that under the 1960 Act local authorities are obliged to admit the public to full council meetings, to committees of the full council and to education committees. It seemed a fairly simple way to deal with what was intended by the Clause accepted in Committee to apply those provisions of the 1960 Act to all committees.
Thus, if the council wishes to preclude the public from any committee of the council, it must pass a resolution to do so and that resolution must be backed by the provisions of the 1960 Act. The House will not, I think, wish me to go into great detail, since it is only an extension of existing law to all the committees of the council. I believe that this meets what the Standing Committee wished, namely, that we should make provision for the committees of councils to be open to the public unless there is good reason for keeping the public out, the same sort of reason as would apply to resolutions to be made in the case of the full council, committees of the full council or the education committee.
One alteration that we have made is to provide that if the council wishes to pass a resolution keeping the public out of committees of the council, it can pass a resolution which will apply for 12 months. That is reasonable because if a committee is announced as taking place and the public believe they can attend, and a resolution is then passed at the commencement of the meeting excluding the public, it will be a source of frustration and annoyance.
It would be better if the council made it clear from which committees it thought it right to exclude the public. The 12-months resolution will be useful in this case.

§ Mr. John Silkin
When the Minister extends the provision for entry of the Press and the public to all committees we are grateful to him for meeting the point. We understood at the time that he accepted our arguments and we there- 238 fore removed the old Clause 100 and the "freedom of the Press" Clause became the new Clause 100. We realised that there would have to be an Amendment.
The second part of the Minister's remarks concerns us, as it should concern the whole House. That is why in a few moments I shall be advising hon. Members to divide the House and why I shall hope that what is not a party point will attract the support of Conservative hon. Members as well as most, if not all, hon. Members on the Opposition benches.
The reason is that the Minister says that it is right that there should be a 12-month period during which a committee may bar the public or the Press. As he said it—and I hope I am not doing him an injustice—I thought he was questioning his own mind and questioning the words. It sounds to me like something that has been wished upon the Minister which he himself does not want. In Committee he bravely and, I suspect, against a certain degree of opinion that had flowed into him for weeks past, stood out for the enry of the Press and the public into the council deliberations. But, of course, to say that a council or a committee may pass a resolution for 12 months is to make the whole thing nugatory.
Amendment No. 245 seeks to provide that the public or the Press may be barred from attending any meeting. The point is that it still gives the council or the committee the right by a simple majority to exclude the Press if it wishes. It must, of course, be for a very serious reason should it wish to do so. Those of us who have served on local authorities know that there are times when the public and the Press must be excluded. Those are occasions when purely domestic matters are under discussion—the interviewing of staff is an obvious example. No one wants to make it obligatory to have the Press and the public in on all occasions like that.
We do not want to be unreasonable but is it so unreasonable to provide that if a council wants to bar the Press and the public it must do so meeting by meeting? As I have often said—and I hope that most hon. Members present were not on the Committee because then they will not be so bored as hon. Members who were if I repeat it—the parallel is with the House of Commons. If I were to 239 spy strangers tonight, there would be a Division, and if my Motion were passed the Galleries would be cleared for this Sitting. We have the best precedent of all. We do not do it for 12 months in advance. My noble Friend, Lord Wigg, used this means of enlivening the House when he felt that it was becoming a little dull.
I hope the Minister will think again. He knows in his heart that what I am saying is absolutely right. I accept that there are pressures on him, but if he is willing to say that he will genuinely consider the matter again between now and the Bill's going to another place, I will not press a Division. Obviously, if I were to press a Division on pure party lines I would, judging by the last correct figures, be horribly beaten, and I have no desire to be horribly beaten. But I think there are enough hon. Members on both sides who feel strongly enough about the right of the Press and the public to be present at council and committee meetings to back me on this. If the Minister says, "I will have another look at this. I have already had two looks, but there is no harm in having a third", I shall be prepared not to oppose the Amendment. But if he uncharacteristically remains intractable, I shall have to press the matter to a Division.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)
I have been particularly interested in the Amendment, and I should like my right hon. Friend to clarify one or two points before it is put and perhaps the House divides. In the main, I welcome the attendance of the Press at council meetings, but I wish to raise two points of administration.
First, where does my right hon. Friend intend that the Press and public should be put in many council committee rooms? Unless the central Government advance vast sums to local government, or committee meetings are to be held in the council chamber, I believe we shall have a number of redundant committee rooms.
Secondly, very often, certainly on the authority on which I have the privilege to serve, many members find it inhibiting to participate in debate in the full council chamber and make a much more positive contribution in committee in a smaller room. I hope that in admitting the Press to committee meetings and other 240 council activities we shall not prevent those who find it difficult to participate in a larger arena from making useful contributions to council debates in the more intimate atmosphere of a council committee room.
These two points are of academic and administrative interest.

§ Mr. Graham Page
I should have thought that anyone with a positive contribution to make in committee would be only too pleased to have the Press there to hear it. That is what we want to encourage. If it means that councillors must meet in another committee room or that committees must always meet in the council chamber to accommodate the Press, that must be done. It is worth it for the purpose that is the basis of the Amendment.
The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin) asked me to think again. I would ask him to think again this time. He frequently asks me to think again, and frequently I have given way to him. Perhaps he will give way to me this time. It is only on very restricted occasions that the 12-months resolution can be passed, if publicity of the business which is transacted at the meeting is likely to be prejudicial to the public interest, and prejudicial …by reason of the confidential nature of the business… That could apply, of course, to various committees in which confidential business take place—for example, the housing committee, which considers individual cases. The 1960 Act goes on: …or for other special reasons stated in the resolution and arising from the nature of the business or of the proceedings… Those are the grounds stated in the 1960 Act. It is not easy to pass a resolution unless the council can be satisfied with the case. From the point of view of convenience, a council will be able to say, "This is the type of committee which deals with confidential matters or receive confidential advice" and to decide that for the ensuing year the public will not be admitted. I think there is a sufficient restriction to make it reasonable to have a 12-months resolution by the council.

§ 1.15 a.m.

§ Mr. John Silkin
I have thought again and I come back to the same thoughts I 241 had a few minutes ago. I find the Minister's attitude extraordinary. During the six years of World War II, the House went into secret session from time to time but the rest of time, although there was excuses enough to do otherwise, held its debates in public. I do not believe that a council needs to go into secret session on every single occasion in a 12-months period, and the same applies to its committees. We are talking about a special occasion.
The right hon. Gentleman has been for once weakened—I do not know by whom—and I think it a great shame because he, like myself, is in favour of the freedom of the Press and wants open council meetings, as I do. He knows perfectly well that one of the difficulties we face is that there are reactionary, hide-bound councils which simply do not want to let the Press in and that they will use this provision as a splendid excuse.

§ Mr. Page
How long would the right hon. Gentleman expect a resolution of this sort to operate? Would it be merely for one meeting of one committee and only for one meeting? That would not meet the case, for example, of the housing committee, which deals with individual cases throughout the year. Would he expect the council on every occasion to pass a resolution in respect of each committee meeting from which it wished to exclude the public?

§ Mr. Silkin
Our Amendment says, "at that meeting", which means meeting by meeting. To permit a council to say at the beginning of the year that a certain committee is so confidential that it should be left confidential throughout the year is extraordinary. Putting a resolution at every meeting would give Press and public advance notice of what was to be done. The point of the exercise of putting a resolution at each meeting is that one needs then to justify it. Unfortunately, the burden is otherwise in the Government's Amendment. It enables the hidebound council to say, "We do not like admitting the Press and the public."
I have met councillors, not necessarily members of the Conservative Party but sometimes of my own party, who do not like the Press around and who think that they get on much better without members of the Press and the public being present. 242 These are the enemies of local democracy. There does not seem to be very much difficulty in saying at each meeting, "As we announced as our policy earlier in the year, we are putting this resolution to the meeting."

§ Mr. Page
The right hon. Gentleman is putting forward a specific proposition now, and if it will save him from ignominious defeat in the Lobbies I will certainly undertake to think about the specific proposition he put to me.

§ Mr. Arthur Jones (Northants, South)
I recall so well the occasion in Committee when my right hon. Friend made this proposition about the admission of the Press to all meetings of local authorities, and the stir it caused both there and outside, particularly in the journalistic world and in local government circles. Many of those who commented on it were initially quite critical of my right hon. Friend, but when they looked into the practical application implied by the Clause, when they looked at the possibility of the admission of the Press to committee meetings, and when they realised that in those committees might be considered private matters and business matters which ought not to be public knowledge, they appreciated that it was perfectly practicable to include the Press in specific circumstances.
I am sure that my right hon. Friend has made extensive inquiries and must have found that many authorities were thinking about admission of the Press and were stimulated by the Clause into moving much more quickly than might otherwise have been the case. It would be interesting on another occasion to know of the difficulties which councils have found. In my experience, a number of councils have accommodated the Press at no great inconvenience to themselves, and have come to satisfactory arrangements with the local Press and, through the local Press organisations, with journalists whose job it is to attend committee meetings.
To require a 12-months period is to go back on many of the advantages which were made very clear to us in Committee. A start has been made on something that has received general approval, and I can not see any significant grounds for back tracking, leading to the suggestion that we now need a 12-months period—

243

§ Mr. Graham Page
It is not requiring a period of 12 months. This is permissive. A council can make the resolution for a 12-months period or it can do so for only one meeting.

§ Mr. Jones
Perhaps I did not choose my words as carefully as I might, but the spirit of what I say is clear, and I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend tell the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin) that he would look at the matter again.

§ Mr. Denis Howell
We are grateful to the Minister for agreeing to look at the question again. The situation could otherwise have been quite ludicrous. A council might pass a blanket resolution covering a period of 12 months, during which time a matter of major public policy could arise which should be debated in the presence of the Press but for which debate the Press could not be admitted. That would be ludicrous. I think that I carry Government supporters with me when I say that this is not a party political issue. Both sides know of councils of different political complexions which are tremendously stubborn and undemocratic in their approach to this problem—both Conservative and Socialist-controlled councils. However, we shall be satisfied if the right hon. Friend will agree to look at the matter again.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Amendment made: No. 779, in page 64, line 14, leave out from 'all' to end of line 15 and insert:

§ 'meetings of committees of local authorities as well as to meetings of local authorities themselves, the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 (in this section referred to as "the 1960 Act") shall have effect subject to the following provisions of this section.

§ (2) Without prejudice to section 2(1) of the 1960 Act (application of section 1 of that Act to any committee of a body whose membership consists of or includes all members of fiat body) section 1 of the 1960 Act shall apply, subject to subsection (3) below, to any committee appointed by one or more local authorities under section 102 below, not being a committee falling within section 2(1) of the 1960 Act.

§ (3) Without prejudice to subsection (2) of section 1 of the 1960 Act (power of body by resolution to exclude public from particular meetings) the local authority or authorities who appointed a committee to which that section applies by virtue of subsection (2) above may, by resolution, exclude the public from meetings of the committee during such period, ending 244 not later than twelve months after the resolution is passed, as may be specified in the resolution, if they are of the opinion that, with respect to much the greater part of the business likely to be transacted at meetings of the committee, publicity for the meetings would be prejudicial to the public interest—

(a) by reason of the confidential nature of the business, or
(b) for other special reasons stated in the resolution and arising from the nature of the business or of the proceedings at which the business will be transacted;

and where such a resolution is passed, the 1960 Act shall not require meetings of the committee to be open to the public during the period specified in the resolution.

§ (4) Subsection (3) of section 1 of the 1960 Act (need to receive or consider recommendations from outside sources a special reason for excluding the public) shall apply in relation to subsection (2)above as it applies in relation to subsection (2) of that section.