HC Deb 10 July 1972 vol 840 cc1157-8
9. Mr. Gwynoro Jones

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will move for the Welsh Office Estimates to be examined by Welsh Members of Parliament on the same lines as Scottish Office Estimates are examined by Scottish Members.

27. Mr. John

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will move to enable detailed consideration of Welsh Estimates by the Welsh Grand Committee.

Mr. Peter Thomas

Consideration of any such changes is a matter within the general terms of reference of the Procedure Committee. I have no doubt that the Committee has noted these suggestions.

Mr. Jones

Surely the Secretary of State is aware that by 1975–76 the Welsh Office Estimates will amount to about £460 million to £500 million. The time available to Welsh Members to scrutinise the Estimates is woefully inadequate. In addition, the functions within the right hon. and learned Gentleman's responsibilities are closely akin to those of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and Scottish Members have much more opportunity of assessing and scrutinising the Scottish Estimates.

Mr. Peter Thomas

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the position of the Scottish Grand Committee and its consideration of Estimates is set out in the Standing Orders. What the hon. Gentleman proposes would entail amending the Standing Orders. There are appropriate channels through which these matters can be raised. If a large number of Members of the Welsh Grand Committee wish this change to be considered, there are appropriate channels through which it can be done.

Mr. John

Does not the Secretary of State realise that what we are asking, particularly in Question 27, is that he should move in the matter? I know that he might find such an arduous feat difficult to achieve, but cannot he initiate some action which will enable the processes of Parliament to be progressively more relevant to the present range and amount of expenditure and the responsibilities being carried out by the Welsh Office?

Mr. Peter Thomas

All I am saying is that it is not appropriate at Question Time to deal with this sort of proposed change because there are appropriate procedures for it. It is a matter for the House, and should right hon. and hon. Members wish such changes to be made they should take steps through the usual channels.

Mr. George Thomas

Surely the Secretary of State is aware that he cannot shuffle off the matter like that. Wales has a right to know whether he is of opinion that we as Welsh Members are entitled to have the same opportunities of investigating Welsh statistics as Scottish Members have of examining expenditure by the Scottish Office. Since the Opposition very much want this to be done, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say that he will not oppose it?

Mr. Peter Thomas

It is very interesting that this is the first time that the right hon. Gentleman has said to me that that is the view of the official Welsh Opposition. If that is their view, the matter can be considered, bearing in mind that the proposed changes might well involve extra staff being employed in the Welsh Office and that other problems must be considered.