HC Deb 04 July 1972 vol 840 cc438-45
Mr. Varley

I beg to move Amendment No. 16, in page 8, line 5, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this Amendment it will be convenient to take the following Amendments:

No. 17, in line 7, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 18, in line 9, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 19, in line 14, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 20, in line 20, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 26, in Clause 48, page 39, line 22, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 27, in line 43, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 28, in Schedule 3, page 49, line 13, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 29, in page 50, line 19, leave out first 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 30, in line 19, leave out second 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 35, in Schedule 6, page 77, line 15, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 36, in line 16, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

Mr. Varley

These Amendments seek to delete the name "Consultative" and to put in its place "Consumers". This is not a pettifogging attempt to change the name of the consultative councils for the sake of it but is a real attempt to use a clearer word to show consumers of gas that when the new Gas Corporation is set up there will be consumer bodies at national, regional and local level specifically to help them.

1.45 a.m.

The House will be aware that under existing legislation there are consumer bodies for the gas industry, but it is generally accepted that these have not been as successful as they should be. First of all, I have to give good reasons why that is so and why I say that. Under the Gas Act, 1948, the consultative councils were set up in this way. The chairmen were ex officiomembers of the area boards. Other members were drawn from local authorities, commerce, industry, the trade unions and other bodies. Their terms of reference were extremely wide and since then their functions have been under close scrutiny.

In a recent issue of Public Enterprise it was said: It is fair to say that the committees have on the whole primarily concerned themselves with seeking redress for individual consumer complaints rather than with the overall policy matters concerning their industry. In this they have been reasonably successful, though limited by restricted public knowledge of their role here. As proponents of an overall consumer viewpoint of their industries and as watchdogs in a wider sense, they can claim little success. Essentially they have acquired what has been called a 'small change' image. What seems to emerge is that the public are not fully aware of the existence of the consultative councils or how they can help them. I think that this was confirmed in the evidence given to the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in the last Session of Parliament when the Committee considered the relations of nationalised industries with the public. In a memorandum submitted to the Select Committee, the Eastern Gas Consultative Council said this about public awareness of the consultative council: It is a sad thing that after more than 21 years of existence the work of the Consultative Council is not more widely known to the gas consumers and some of the blame for this must rest with the Council. At the same time it is difficult to know how to get our existence across without expenditure which could not be justified. In all probability the vast majority of consumers will never need to approach us but this must not be used as an excuse and reasonable publicity must be maintained. Not only must there be reasonable publicity, but proper terminology must be applied and the functions must be improved.

When the Bill was in Committee the Government went a considerable way, in response to an Amendment put down by the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg) and supported by the Opposition, towards trying to improve the functions and independent powers of the consultative councils. As a result, Schedule 3 was changed substantially and, I think, helpfully.

Under the Bill there will not be any cross-posting. Chairmen of consultative councils will not be serving as ex officiomembers of the new Gas Corporation. The councils will be able to employ staff and have the equipment and premises they want, and under these arrangements they can be much more independent or have a much more independent outlook.

I am not saying that the proposals are absolutely perfect. There is a strong body of opinion which says that ministerial appointments tend to hamper the work of the councils, but the changes made so far are positively useful and important. In our view the consultative councils should be more clearly established as the consumer's watchdog and it is for this reason that we want to name them consumer councils. There is confusion in the minds of the public about the role of the consultative councils. Some consumers think they refer to worker-employer relations and not to consumers.

I have the support of evidence given to the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries by the late Professor Hanson, who submitted a long memorandum but made a specific point which support the Amendment. Under the heading "Changes within the System", he said: There are certain things that could be usefully done within the present structure, without radical alteration. It could easily be ensured, for instance, that even though members of these bodies continued to be appointed by the Minister, in accordance with the terms of present legislation, their independence of the board which they advise should be emphasised. In some cases (e.g. gas and electricity) even a change of name might help. 'Consultative Council' is ambiguous—perhaps deliberately so. 'Consumer Council' would at least put the emphasis right. Is it accidental that, in its report, the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council appears, in general, to speak on behalf of the consumer with a much clearer voice than most of the Consultative Councils in gas and electricity? Professor Hanson made a great study of these matters.

When these new bodies are set up under the Bill, which may be in 1973, we want the members who are appointed to show a real independence. Of course we want them to understand the problems of the gas industry and to show proper regard to those factors. We also want them to offer help to the new Gas Corporation. But above all we want the consumers' councils—as we hope they will become—to play an important part in winning public confidence in the nationalised industries.

Given the change of name as proposed m the Amendment, and given the changes already made in Committee, we feel that the people appointed to these new bodies in 1973 will be free of the restrictions placed upon them in the past and that they will be much better equipped to help the industry and the 13 million gas customers.

We hope that the Government will accept the Amendment. It would be useful to rename these bodies "consumer" bodies.

Mr. Emery

I thank the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) for moving the Amendment in the way he has.

In Committee we had a discussion partially on this matter. The hon. Member and his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer) proposed ideas somewhat on the lines of those contained in the Amendments. Equally, from the same side of the Committee, the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett), wished to retain the word "consultative" rather than "consumer".

As I am responding to the request of the hon. Member for Bristol, Central, may I say that the two words "consultative" and "consumers'" have come to represent two conflicting views on how the consumer/consultative machinery in a nationalised industry should function. In their extreme form, one view is that the councils are partners in the task of running the industry for the benefit of the consumer. The other view is that the interests of the industry and its customers are opposed and that the councils' function is to stand at arm's length from the board and do battle on behalf of the consumer.

To recapitulate, obviously "consultative" represents the former view and "consumers'" the latter. So under whatever name the councils have, a mixture of the two rôles is right and, in my view, is bound to come about.

Consultative councils were always intended to take up complaints on behalf of consumers, and they do. If the complaint proves to be unjustified, the council will find itself defending the industry's decisions and practices for the consumer. That is right. Not every consumer's complaint is based on truth or fact. On the other hand the councils, through being made aware in their consultative rôle of the industry's problems and policies, are better able to handle complaints and are less likely to be fobbed off with spurious excuses, which has happened in the past.

I am in the happy position of having resigned from the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, which has just reported, and being able sooner than almost any other Minister to put into effect in legislation the recommendations of the Select Committee. Both the Select Committee and the Bill move away from the emphasis of the 1948 Act without going to the other extreme. The Select Committee said that to represent the interests of the consumer should be the central purpose of all statutory consultative machinery. I agree with that and I am delighted that the Government do, too. But it also underlined the value of consultation between boards and councils on the boards' general plans and arrangements. That is right.

A further more practical factor affecting the councils' name is the impact on consumers. It is interesting to note that the East Midlands Gas Consultative Council, for example, proposed a change to "Gas Users' Council" on the ground that consumers failed to identify the consultative council as a body set up to look after their interests. The change to "Gas Consumers' Council" will be equally effective for this purpose.

I am delighted to accept the Opposition Amendments, but I make it clear that that does not mean a massive change of policy. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), who at one time led the Opposition in Committee, often said that to change a word without a change of policy was wrong. I do not agree, particularly in this instance. But this should not be interpreted as implying any diminution in the consultative role, involving an exchange of information and ideas between what will now be the consumers' councils and the corporation which should be and can be of great long-term benefit to gas consumers. No change in name will do away with the fact that the role of the councils must become really known to the consumers. It must be clearly understood that this body is a watchdog for consumers' complaints. That is what the Government want. I hope that in future there will be a diminution in the number of complaints made to hon. Members because they have been adequately dealt with by the new consumers' council. In this way the consumer will better be able to associate himself with this body, which will be there to look after his interest.

I hope that on this Amendment at least I shall not be accused of not having given the matter full consideration. The Amendment should be accepted and it will, I believe, be welcome to everybody. I hope I can be associated with all the Amendments which go with the Amendment which has been moved in order to bring about the desired end.

Mr. Robert C. Brown

We are grateful for the Minister's acceptance of the substitution of "consumer" for "consultative". I am delighted that these bodies are to be clearly recognised as consumer bodies instead of being called nonsensically consultative bodies. However, I am a little disappointed that the Minister says that they will be watchdog organisations for the consumer. He must concede that as long as they are financed directly by the Gas Corporation they are toothless watchdogs. As long as the consumers' councils are dependent upon the corporation for their financing, the provision of office facilities and secretarial assistance, they must be seen as creatures of the corporation. I sincerely hope that the Minister will seek at a later stage to ensure that the councils are seen to be independent of the corporation in every sense of the word.

2.0 a.m.

Mr. Emery

May I remind the hon. Member that the Amendments that the Government put forward to the Schedule spelt out the position. The hon. Member must have been on constituency business elsewhere when we dealt with the point in Committee. His statement is not quite correct. The councils will be able to appoint their own staff and to select their own premises and they will arrange with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what their budget will be. The corporation will in no way come into the decisions about the budget. That is a matter for the councils and the Secretary of State. These provisions sprung from recommendations of the Select Committee.

The only thing that will be changed is that when the Secretary of State and the consumers' council have agreed on these matters, instead of the money coming from the taxpayer, it will come from the corporation. But the corporation can in no way interfere to influence what the budget can be. The reasons for this relate to the staffing problems. If the hon. Member will look at my speech in Committee he will see the situation explained. There is a quite important point in dispensing the rights of present staff on salary scales and pensions. The point has been closely vetted by myself and the Government and accepted by the Opposition. I hope we have therefore been able to meet the points raised by the hon. Member.

Mr. Robert C. Brown

I thank the Under-Secretary for those assurances. I still feel that it is not a great deal to ask the Government to ensure that the councils are seen to be 100 per cent. independent of the Gas Corporation and that their finances should be provided by a Vote from this House.

Mr. Emery

If that was the case they would be unable to appoint their own staff. Once their staff situation is met by the Government, the staff become civil servants. It was the general opinion of the Committee that the councils should be able to appoint their own staff and that is why I asked the hon. Member to look at the speech I made in Committee. The Government wanted to give the greatest possible degree of independence. I ask the hon. Member to take my assurance on that point.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

No. 17, in page 8, line 7 leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 18, in line 9, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 19, in line 14, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.

No. 20, in line 20, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers''.—[Mr. Varley.]

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