§ Amendments made: No. 35, in page 77, line 15, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers'.
§ No. 36, in line 16, leave out 'Consultative' and insert 'Consumers'.—[Mr. Varley.].
§ Mr. EmeryI beg to move Amendment No. 33, in page 77, line 20, after 'regulations', insert 'rules'.
This Amendment remedies a very small defect in the Bill which has only just come to light. There are three, not two categories of subordinate legislation to which the modification made by paragraph 19 of Schedule 6 should apply. This is why it has been altered.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 5.43 a.m.
§ Mr. EmeryI beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
It is only fair to say that the Gas Council has been waiting since about 1966
§ The House divided: Ayes 9, Noes 69.
501| Division No. 266.] | AYES | [5.35 a.m. |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Garrett, W. E. | Varley, Eric G. |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Kaufman, Gerald | |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Palmer, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Concannon, J. D. | Skinner, Dennis | Mr. John Golding and |
| Mr. Tom Pendry |
| NOES | ||
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Hawkins, Paul | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Rost, Peter |
| Benyon, W. | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Sharples, Sir Richard |
| Biggs-Davidson, John | James, David | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Boscawen, Robert | Jopling, Michael | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Kinsey, J. R. | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Le Merchant, Spencer | Soref, Harold | |
| Bray, Ronald | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Speed, Keith |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Marsden, F. | Sproat, Iain |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Montgomery, Fergus | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Chapman, Sydney | More, Jasper | Stokes, John |
| Cockeram, Eric | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Cooke, Robert | Murton, Oscar | Sutcliffe, John |
| Crouch, David | Neave, Airey | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Normanton, Tom | Tebbit, Norman |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Osborn, John | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Emery, Peter | Parkinson, Cecil | Waddington, David |
| Fidler, Michael | Pink, R. Bonner | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Fortescue, Tim | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Goodhew, Victor | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Gower, Raymond | Raison, Timothy | Worsley, Marcus |
| Gray, Hamish | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | |
| Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Mr. John Stradling Thomas and |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Mr. Marcus Fox |
§ or 1967 to get its legislation. I cannot think of any nationalised industry which has had to wait quite so long for its legislation.
§ Therefore, it is right that I should pay tribute to those many men who have built up the Gas Council and the organisations under the area boards, which in some ways will disappear under the Act. Eighteen years ago most people believed that, with only the carbonisation of coal as its method of production, the gas industry was doomed to a slow decline. Under leadership which was both brilliant and highly commercial, the industry was all but re-born. High speed gas hit the country with a marketing impact of the first order. All this was founded first on the new feedstock position. There was methane imported and shipped from the Sahara, with new reforming processes using naptha, a light distillate from oil refining. Then came the real revolution, the major discovery of hydrocarbons under the British section of the Continental Shelf—North Sea gas was upon us.
§ Thus the Bill vitally alters the structure of the industry to allow modern management to control, influence and expand in an efficient and financially profitable organisation the great potential of the gas 503 industry. It also accepted the facts of life that from a coal-based manufacturing industry it has become a pipe-gridded distributing and marketing organisation. The Bill recognises the consumer's place in this complex, and a new and, I believe, reinforced structure of consumer protection is introduced. I am delighted that both sides of the House have been able to co-operate in bringing that about.
§ The Bill recognises the power of the industry, and the rôle it must play in the whole energy field of the United Kingdom. Some may try to criticise by saying that a State monopoly has been strengthened. Yes, the strengthening is there. But this Government believe in a mixed economy. They believe in a strong private sector, but similarly, with a proper understanding of the benefits for the nation, they wish to ensure that those industries in the public sector are as efficient as possible, well managed and profitable. That is the structure which the Bill sets out to allow to be provided.
§ It is only in this way that consumers of gas, those who work in that industry, and the nation as a whole will benefit. That is why a more centralised management structure has seemed right: that is why a central purchasing organisation for North Sea gas is likely to ensure the best benefit for all present and potential consumers; that is why we have continued to allow a Gas Corporation participation in North Sea exploration as long as this is operated sensibly within the confines of commercial prudence; that is why we have gone out to ensure in the Bill, combining with other legislation, that these monopoly powers shall not be misused. That is why the Government believe that they should provide an overall structure which will allow the Gas Corporation to be able to maximise this massive asset and to provide a structure for the industry which we think can work for at least the next 25 years.
§ For these and hundreds of other reasons that we have had in the hours upon hours of debate in Committee, I commend the Bill. I thank those hon. Members who served on the Committee, particularly my hon. Friends for their full understanding of the Bill in silent participation. I am also grateful for the way in which, after one or two problems, 504 the Opposition were able to help in perhaps making the Bill better than it was on Second Reading.
§ 5.47 a.m.
§ Mr. VarleyI can hear the sighs of relief on the Government benches as we reach the final stages of the Bill. If we have taken six months rather than the six days which would have been necessary just to transfer the powers of the Gas Council to the new Gas Corporation, the Government have only themselves to blame. Last January, when the Bill began its weary passage through the House, we offered a deal. I said on 27th January:
If the Government say that they intend to abandon Clauses 7 and 16 and have a total strategy for employment prospects within the gas industry, we will help the Bill through Committee."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th January, 1972; Vol. 829, c. 1700.]However, the Government pursued their folly, and what would have been a routine Bill had contentious Clauses in it and embodied some of the Government's dogma. That was why we had to give the Bill the detailed scrutiny it received.I think we have done a good job. There were 26 full sittings of the Standing Committee, and one was abandoned because the Committee showed personal kindness to me in a family problem. We had 1,106 columns of Hansard over 15 weeks. So the Bill was well scrutinised. I pay tribute to those of my hon. Friends who served on the Committee whose industry and pertinacity ensured that the Bill received the detailed examination it required. It was a small Committee. On the Opposition side there were only seven of us. Half way through the Committee stage I took over Front Bench responsibility, and I may be pardoned if I think of my hon. Friends as the "magnificent seven". I particularly pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer), who has been of invaluable help to me in these proceedings.
What is more, as the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, we have succeeded in improving the Bill a little, although there are still parts of it that we detest, and any incoming Labour Government will have to look at them very carefully indeed. Our keenest scrutiny will be reserved for the way in which Clause 7 is operated, 505 with the pernicious powers it gives to the Secretary of State to meddle with and interfere in the Gas Corporation's workings, order it about, submit it to humiliating interventions and pry into its activities. Clause 7 was the Eden-Ridley Clause. Those hon. Gentlemen have departed. We hope the new Minister and the new Under-Secretary will thrust this legacy into a very dusty pigeonhole.
There is one lesson to be derived from the protracted debates that the Government would do well to learn. We are told that shortly Parliament is to be asked to consider the Coal Industry Bill. If the Government are going to introduce a Bill they should not tag on—if they wish to get it through Parliament quickly—some of the Clauses we have seen in this Bill.
At this stage and hour, whatever the differences between the two sides, it is the duty of all of us in Parliament to wish the new Gas Corporation, its management, and all those who work in it, a bright future, with the reputation for zeal and innovation which they have earned.
On 30th June, 1972, I said that the gas industry was the fastest growing industry in Britain; with its new scope and its new image it can be a pacemaker for the future. It is in that spirit that we on the Front Bench on this side at any rate take leave of this Bill today.
§ Mr. Robert C. BrownIn contributing to the Third Reading debate, I declare my interest.
As a member of the General Municipal Workers Union, the trade union which organises the majority of the employees in the gas industry, I want to seek from the Minister five assurances on points which worry my union and colleagues in the industry.
So far as Clause 7 and hiving off are concerned, can the Minister give us a firm assurance that the Government have no proposals that the new Gas Corporation shall divest itself of any profitable functions immediately after vesting date?
Second, on the question of pricing policy, can we have an assurance from the Minister that when pricing policy is to be determined the trade unions will be consulted at all stages?
Third, when the future of the organisation is to be determined will the Minister 506 give us an assurance that all interests, including the trade unions, will be consulted throughout?
Fourth, on the question of future training for the industry, and apprentices in particular, recently the Gas Council has cut back on the apprentice intake into the industry.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hesitate to interrupt the hon. Member. He must confine himself to what is in the Bill.
§ Mr. Robert C. BrownWith respect, there is nothing I have spoken of that is not in the Bill. While I respect your ruling at all times, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I do not talk about the Bill I am sure you have every right to call me to order. I am talking about training. That aspect is contained in the Bill.
In recent times the Gas Council has reduced the apprentice intake. That is regrettable. Since my hon. Friend says that the industry has an expansionist future, will the Minister give me an assurance that he will seek an immediate expansion in the training programme of the Gas Corporation so that the expansion we look forward to can be catered for?
The Minister may have heard his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday say that my suggestion that the headquarters of the National Gas Corporation should be located at Kenton Bar in the Newcastle, West constituency was constructive. Will the Minister bear that point in mind when he has discussions with the new Gas Corporation about the location of the headquarters?
I join my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) in wishing all who serve in the gas industry the success which they deserve.
§ Mr. GarrettMy intervention at this stage of this long and weary procedure will be brief. In Committee I participated in a long debate on Clause 1 seeking to reduce the number of full-time members of the Gas Corporation. We were unsuccessful, but I hope that when the Bill goes to another place there will be further intensive debate on that Clause and some modification.
The Committee has made progress, and it is a better Bill, as the Minister rightly said. It would be churlish of any of us 507 to deny that in general we have had the fullest explanations from the Minister. We have not necessarily accepted them but they have been given in good spirit, which has been in contrast to his predecessor in the early stages of the Bill. We were unable to get any degree of compromise or understanding then. We have received that lately, and for that we can be grateful.
I endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) said about my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer). He played a valiant rôle on our side of the Committee and worked damned hard. The same can be said of my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield, who was always courteous but persistent in his attacks. It was a very good Committee. I know that hon. Members opposite in the main remained silent, but, who knows, on the next Gas Bill—this is my third, I think—they may be in the position we are now in and they can make long and detailed points when the occasion arises.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.