Northern Ireland

HC Deb 27 January 1972 vol 829 cc1596-600

10. Mr. Duffy

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next expects to visit Northern Ireland.

Mr. Maudling

I have at present no date fixed for another visit to Northern Ireland.

Mr. Duffy

Does the Home Secretary, following his last visit to Northern Ireland, recall having been reported in The Guardian as saying that he saw little likelihood of a final military solution to the Northern Ireland crisis? Will he explain why he has been so reluctant to bring forward his own political initiative? Does he not regard the events of the last few days, culminating in this morning's shootings, as an ominous development? May I take this opportunity of expressing to the relatives of the deceased my personal sorrow and, I am sure, that of hon. Members on all sides of the House? If the Home Secretary will not bring forward a political initiative with regard to his security responsibilities, will he seek to ease the situation and facilitate all-party talks?

Mr. Maudling

I am sure the whole House joins with the hon. Gentleman in expressing sympathy to the relatives of those who are the most recent murder victims of the campaign of terrorism. The phrase "political initiative" is sometimes used a little loosely. The initiative the Government have taken is to propose talks with all concerned to achieve, for minority and majority communities alike, an active, permanent and guaranteed rôle by agreement in the life of the Province. One can only get agreement by consultation and discussion. One cannot hold discussions with people who will not participate in discussion.

Mr. Chichester-Clark

Bearing in mind that it was two of my constituents who were so brutally murdered this morning, would my right hon. Friend urge as many hon. Members opposite as possible who have not been to Northern Ireland to go there and try to satisfy themselves, by talking to all kinds of people, that there are few if any grievances remaining which could be put right legislatively? Will he persuade them to return to this House and urge those who have left public life to return to it and try to give the framework offered to them a fair chance? Is not this a way in which loss of life may be averted in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Maudling

I welcome visits by hon. Members to Northern Ireland. I have always made it clear that we as a Government believe there must be a twin solution, military and political. Those who commit violence merely put off further the day of solution.

Mr. Orme

Is the Home Secretary aware that I, as one hon. Member who has recently spent three days in the Bog-side and in Belfast, believe the situation is desperate in those two cities and that some initiative is needed by the Government, but that another internment campaign will not solve the problem? In fact the situation which exists at the moment shows that internment has failed. When will the Home Secretary take a political initiative?

Mr. Maudling

The hon. Gentleman is repeating what he has said time and again.

Mr. Orme

And I will go on saying It.

Mr. Maudling

I do not accept what he says about internment. The best political initiative that could be taken would be if minority representatives would come and talk to us.

Mr. Kilfedder

When next my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary visits Northern Ireland, will he visit many of the families who have been bereaved as a result of the activities of these evil men, members of the I.R.A.'? Would he not agree that, having had such direct experience of their anguish, which reflects the anguish of all the people of Northern Ireland, he would be in a better position to persuade his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to bring pressure on the Eire Government to drop their hypocritical attitude and put an end to I.R.A. publicity, I.R.A. recruiting campaigns in the South, and giving them the opportunity to publicise the activities of those who have escaped from internment camps?

Mr. Maudling

That question goes a long way beyond the original Question and is not one I can satisfactorily deal with in question and answer. I appreciate my hon. Friend's feelings of revulsion that people who have committed murder should flaunt themselves in other countries.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is the Home Secretary aware that all of us who have visited Northern Ireland are well aware that there is no easy solution to this problem? Is he also aware that we know that Her Majesty's Government are prepared for talks on all aspects of the Northern Ireland issue. Is that the view of Mr. Faulkner? Has the right hon. Gentleman noted that Mr. Lynch has said within the last 48 hours in a wider context that he will be prepared to talk before internment finishes? Has the right hon. Gentleman spoken to the S.D.L.P. recently, because there is urgent need for talks to begin?

Mr. Maudling

I agree that there is urgent need for talks to begin, and I hope that talks between the parties in this Parliament may be taking place in the very near future. As for the S.D.L.P., I have repeatedly asked its representatives to come and talk to me on the basis of no conditions on either side and time and again they have refused.

22. Mr. Cronin

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what further progress has now been made in achieving a political settlement satisfactory to the Catholic minority in Ulster.

Mr. Maudling

I am not in a position to add to the reply I gave to a question by the hon. Member on 2nd December.—[Vol. 827, c. 624–5.]

Mr. Cronin

Does the Home Secretary agree that the chief reason so far for the failure of the British Army to deal with I.R.A. terrorism is lack of co-operation by the Catholic minority based on a conviction that the Army is largely a creature of the Stormont Government? Would it not be desirable therefore, to achieve some improvement in the situation, if the control of security were transferred from Stormont to Westminster as soon as possible?

Mr. Maudling

The progress made by the Army recently has been considerable, and although I.R.A. propaganda has always said that the Army is the creature of the Stormont Parliament it is generally recognised by fair-minded people that that is not so. I must repeat that progress in such matters can be achieved only by agreement, and agreement can be achieved only when we can get together and discuss outstanding problems.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Is not the only settlement acceptable to very many Catholics, particularly those who, despite atrocious terror, are serving the Crown in the R.U.C., the U.D.R. and other services, one which maintains the Union? May they have the assurance that they will not be sold down the Irish Sea?

Mr. Maudling

Like our predecessors, the Government have repeated time and again the pledge given in the 1949 Act.

Mr. Stallard

Will the Home Secretary accept that there is widespread support, both in this country and in the Six Counties, for the view that repression will never solve the problems of the Six Counties? Would not the right hon. Gentleman accept that in order to get these discussions going, real political initiatives along the following lines will have to be taken? First, he will very shortly have to discuss the suspension of Stormont; second, certainly the ending of internment, and third, the return of control of security matters to Westminster. Will he take positive steps to do those three things in order to create an atmosphere in which discussions can take place?

Mr. Maudling

I have indicated several times, as I have this afternoon, that I have been hoping to have talks with the political representatives of the community on a wide range and without conditions. What I cannot accept is that before they are prepared to talk they must have their wishes granted.

Mr. McMaster

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the main problem in Northern Ireland is not that of satisfying the minority with the many political reforms which have been introduced over the last two or three years but of dealing with the callous, small group of Republicans who have, with wanton cruelty, murdered many hundreds of innocent civilians, sometimes in front of their wives and children, and have let off bombs in crowded places, thereby injuring and maiming hundreds of others, in order, by extreme violence, murder and the threat of violence, to achieve a political end?

Mr. Maudling

I think it is generally agreed on both sides of the House that the suppression of brutal murder should be the first priority. But the problems of a settlement go much further than that, and much further than I can reasonably answer at Question Time.

Mr. Heffer

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the last Monday's edition of the Belfast Telegraph, which is not a minority paper but which clearly pointed out that the initiative must lie with the Westminster Government and that the first thing that has to be done is to transfer responsibility for security to Westminster? Is it not clear that the Government must take this sort of initiative now in order to achieve the talks which, I hope, would eventually lead to an end of the violence in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Maudling

I would not and cannot accept that position. The facts are that there is a very wide gap between the two communities' attitudes on these important matters of security. Where there is a wide gap, my job is to bridge it. I cannot begin to do so until the two sides will come and take part in talks.