§ 10.12 p.m.
§ Mr. Frederick Mulley (Sheffield, Park)I beg to move, Amendment No. 1, in line 16, leave out subsection (3).
Although the Amendment is innocent in appearance, it seems to embody the whole argument between the two sides on this Bill.
Section 53 of the Transport Act, 1968, provides that the Transport Holding Company can be wound up, but only under subsection (1)(b), to which the Amendment is directed, and which provides that the property remaining in the Transport Holding Company—in other words, Thomas Cook & Son—is transferred to a publicly-owned body.
We deeply regret and oppose the Government's intention to put up the company for sale to private interests. I move this Amendment because, if it is not possible to make Thomas Cook & Son a viable and prosperous concern as a separate publicly-owned company, and if a change of structure and management is thought necessary, I see no reason why it cannot be retained in the public sector. It is the view of hon. Members on this side that some consortium could be arranged for the purpose, perhaps with British Railways, the new Air Holdings Company, B.E.A., B.O.A.C., or possibly under the general supervision and direction of one of the tourist boards. If the Government feel that it cannot be left as a separate, viable, publicly-owned body then their first duty should have been to make some arrangement where it could be transferred to a public body.
The Under-Secretary argued in Committee that technically and legally the
§ Bill was unnecessary but that the Government are making doubly sure by coming to the House for the legislation. We are grateful and agree that they should do so. I and my right hon. and hon. Friends feel that it is a totally unnecessary and doctrinaire Measure because Thomas Cook, like the State breweries, has been in public ownership for many years, under successive Governments. At a time when the country is demanding more public investment to deal with our desperate economic situation, the Government should not be concerned with this matter. The issue is whether we should keep the important assets and potential of Thomas Cook in the public sector or whether it should go up for auction. I hope that the Government will undertake to look at this again and consider the possibility of Thomas Cook remaining in the public sector if it cannot remain a publicly-owned, separate entity.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Eldon Griffiths)The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) is always persuasive but I must advise the House that if subsection (3) were to be left out we should be left with Section 53 of the 1968 Act and this would not be consistent with the purposes of the Bill. I must advise the House to retain subsection (3) and to reject the Amendment, because, as the 1968 Act made clear, it is appropriate and expedient—hon. Gentlemen agreed to this—for the Secretary of State to have the power to transfer elsewhere the assets of the Transport Holding Co. and thereafter to dissolve it.
As the parent Act now stands it cannot be said unequivocally, beyond peradventure, that after the sale of Thomas Cook we could use the Section 53 procedure to dispose of any vestigial assets or liabilities that might remain and thereafter to wind up the T.H.C. Since this is the whole purpose of the Bill, we must dispose of any possible doubt, and I must ask the House to reject the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 223.
1335| Division No. 43] | AYES | [10.19 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Armstrong, Ernest | Atkinson, Norman |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Ashton, Joe | Bagier, Gordon A. T. |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Hattersley, Roy | Palmer, Arthur |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Heffer, Eric S. | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Horam, John | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Freo |
| Booth, Albert | Huckfield, Leslie | Pendry, Tom |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Pentland, Norman |
| Bradley, Tom | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Prescott, John |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hunter, Adam | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Buchan, Norman | Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Janner, Greville | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | John, Brynmor | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Cant, R. B. | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Carmichael, Neil | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Roper, John |
| Cohen, Stanley | Kaufman, Gerald | Rose, Paul B. |
| Concannon, J. D. | Kerr, Russell | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Kinnock, Neil | Sandelson, Neville |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Lambie, David | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Lamond, James | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Latham, Arthur | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Lawson, George | Sillars, James |
| Dalyell, Tam | Leadbitter, Ted | Skinner, Dennis |
| Davidson, Arthur | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Small, William |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Lomas, Kenneth | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Loughlin, Charles | Stallard, A. W. |
| Deakins, Eric | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Stoddart, David (Swindon) |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | McCartney, Hugh | Strang, Gavin |
| Dempsey, James | McElhone, Frank | Swain, Thomas |
| Doig, Peter | McGuire, Michael | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Mackenzie, Gregor | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Mackie, John | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Maclennan, Robert | Tinn, James |
| Dunnett, Jack | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Tomney, Frank |
| Eadie, Alex | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Torney, Tom |
| Ellis, Tom | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Urwin, T. W. |
| English, Michael | Marks, Kenneth | Varley, Eric G. |
| Evans, Fred | Marquand, David | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Ewing, Henry | Marshall, Dr. Edmund | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) |
| Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Meacher, Michael | Wallace, George |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Watkins, David |
| Foot, Michael | Mikardo, Ian | Wellbeloved, James |
| Ford, Ben | Millan, Bruce | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Forrester, John | Milne, Edward | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Garrett, W. E. | Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) | Whitlock, William |
| Gilbert, Dr. John | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Golding, John | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Murray, Ronald King | Woof, Robert |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Oakes, Gordon | |
| Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Ogden, Eric | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hardy, Peter | O'Halloran, Michael | Mr. James Dunn and Mr. William Hamling. |
| Harper, Joseph | O'Malley, Brian | |
| Orme, Stanley | ||
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Bray, Ronald | Clegg, Walter |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Brinton, Sir Tatton | Cockeram, Eric |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Cooke, Robert |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Coombs, Derek |
| Astor, John | Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Cooper, A. E. |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Buck, Antony | Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Balniel, Lord | Bullus, Sir Eric | Cormack, Patrick |
| Benyon, W. | Burden, F. A. | Crouch, David |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Curran, Charles |
| Biffen, John | Carlisle, Mark | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James |
| Blaker, Peter | Channon, Paul | Dean, Paul |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Chapman, Sydney | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. |
| Boscawen, Robert | Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Drayson, G. B. |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Chichester-Clark, R. | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Bowden, Andrew | Churchill, W. S. | Dykes, Hugh |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Eden, Sir John |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Kershaw, Anthony | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Kilfedder, James | Redmond, Robert |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Eyre, Reginald | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Farr, John | Kinsey, J. R. | Roberts Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Fell, Anthony | Kirk, Peter | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Kitson, Timothy | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Rost, Peter |
| Fortescue, Tim | Knox, David | Royle, Anthony |
| Foster, Sir John | Lane, David | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Fowler, Norman | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Scott, Nicholas |
| Fox, Marcus | Le Marchant, Spencer | Sharples, Richard |
| Fry, Peter | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Longden, Gilbert | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Loveridge, John | Simeons, Charles |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Goodhart, Philip | MacArthur, Ian | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Goodhew, Victor | McCrindle, R. A. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Gorst, John | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Soref, Harold |
| Gower, Raymond | McMaster, Stanley | Speed, Keith |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Spence, John |
| Gray, Hamish | McNair-Wiison, Patrick (NewForest) | Sproat, Iain |
| Green, Alan | Maddan, Martin | Stainton, Keith |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Madel, David | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Grylls, Michael | Mather, Carol | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Maude, Angus | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Gurden, Harold | Mawby, Ray | Stokes, John |
| Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Sutcliffe, John |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Tapsell, Peter |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Miscampbell, Norman | Tebbit, Norman |
| Hastings, Stephen | Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W) | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Havers, Michael | Moate, Roger | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Hawkins, Paul | Molyneaux, James | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Hay, John | Money, Ernie | Trew, Peter |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Monro, Hector | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin |
| Hiley, Joseph | More, Jasper | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Waddington, David |
| Holland, Philip | Morrison, Charles | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Holt, Miss Mary | Murton, Oscar | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Warren, Kenneth |
| Hordern, Peter | Neave, Airey | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Hornby, Richard | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Normanton, Tom | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Onslow, Cranley | Wilkinson, John |
| Hunt, John | Osborn, John | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| James, David | Parkinson, Cecil | Worsley, Marcus |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Peel, John | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Younger, Hn. George |
| Jessel, Toby | Pike, Miss Mervyn | |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Pink, R. Bonner | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Mr. John Stradling Thomas and |
| Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Mr. Michael Jopling. |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |