§ 4. Mr. Strangasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 945 Affairs what further representations he has received from African Commonwealth Governments regarding the proposed test of acceptability in Rhodesia.
§ The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)Letters which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has received from two Heads of African Commonwealth Governments have commented on this subject.
§ Mr. StrangI shall hopefully await the right hon. Gentleman's statement on this matter.
§ 5. Mr. Clinton Davisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what guarantees he will require from the illegal Rhodesian régime that Mr. Joshua Nkomo and the Rev. N. Sithole will be permitted to make unfettered representations to the British Commission on the test of acceptability of the Rhodesian settlement proposals.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeLord Pearce has told me that he has seen Mr. Smith about this matter. I have no reason to expect difficulties to arise.
§ Mr. Clinton DavisIs the right hon. Gentleman now saying that no difficulties will be placed in the way of the Rev. Sithole in making representations directly to the commission? Is that not totally out of accord with replies which he has previously given? Further, having regard to the iniquitous state of affairs in Rhodesia—the murder of eight Africans and the wounding of 49—is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with any guarantees that the traitor Smith is prepared to give?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe latter point does not arise out of the Question. I said that Lord Pearce had seen Mr. Smith about these matters. I have not heard what they have actually arranged about the Rev. Sithole. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I saw Mr. Nkomo. I am certain that no difficulties will arise.
§ Mr. HealeyMay I press the right hon. Gentleman on the question of the Rev. Sithole? He will recall that I and several of my right hon. and hon. Friends asked whether Lord Pearce would be free to see the Rev. Sithole and we were told, "No". Further, Lord 946 Pearce himself indicated at the Press conference which he gave a week ago that he was not able to see Mr. Sithole. The House would greatly welcome it if representations had been successfully made to Mr. Smith. Will the right hon. Gentleman now assure the House that he will press Mr. Smith on this matter until he receives a favourable response?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI do not believe in doing other people's jobs for them. When I ask a responsible man like Lord Pearce to do a job, I leave it to him. It is for him to be satisfied that the necessary arrangements are made for him to receive from the Rev. Sithole his views. How Lord Pearce will achieve this I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman yet, because I have not heard the result of his meetings with Mr. Smith and the consideration given to it.
§ Mr. SorefIn view of the special pleading for Mr. Nkomo and the Rev. Sithole from hon. Members opposite, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend recalls the word of Mr. Nkomo in 1961:
I will not rest until the rivers of the Zimbabwe run red with the blood of every white man, woman and child and every African who supports them"?Also, will he confirm that the Rev. Sithole was found guilty of plotting to assassinate the Prime Minister of Rhodesia and some of his colleagues? [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] He was found guilty. Is it not a fact that these people are seeking to create a revolution, not a settlement?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe views of Mr. Nkomo are quite well known. He has spoken of them himself quite lately. But that is no reason why he should not see Lord Pearce.
§ 8. Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a further statement on the method of operation of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia.
§ 13. Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the latest developments for the establishment of the Pearce Commission on the Rhodesian settlement inquiry.
§ 17. Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 947 Affairs if he will make a statement about the timetable for Lord Pearce's commission of inquiry into the acceptability of proposals for a settlement with the illegal régime in Rhodesia.
§ 43. Mr. David Steelasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the Pearce Commission has now released information about the procedures it will adopt in testing Rhodesian opinion.
§ 53. Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Pearce Commission's inquiries in Rhodesia.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeAs the House will be aware, the commission has now embarked on an extensive programme of hearings which will eventually cover the whole country. Despite difficulties arising out of the present security situation, which has necessitated certain changes in the programme, the commission's work is going ahead.
I will, with permission, circulate a fuller statement about the commission's procedures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. LaneIs my right hon. Friend aware that we all welcome the determination of the Pearce Commission to complete its task thoroughly and with the necessary freedom of political discussion? However, to prevent any misunderstanding, can he also confirm that the Government's commitment to the present proposals is conditional on an affirmative report from the commission and that, if that is not forthcoming, Britain will retain her responsibility and sanctions will continue and Britain and the world community will have to consider the whole problem afresh?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI, too, am glad that the commission is sticking to its task. It is important that it should be able to operate in a calm and peaceful atmosphere and I trust that there is now hope of that. As for the future, I shall not speculate far ahead. The great thing is that the commission should give me its report after it has been able to consult all the people of Rhodesia, or as many as it possibly can, and then we shall be able to make up our minds.
§ Mr. DykesWould not my right hon. Friend agree that after the astonishing utterances of Mr. Ian Smith the other day, when he called into question the whole basis of the test of acceptability and the study of the proposals, nothing would now be worse than for the Pearce Commission to be deterred by the brutal overreaction of the Smith régime to the disturbances last week and to abandon its task in the short term instead of taking the many weeks and months which may be necessary for a complete investigation?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeYes, Sir. The commission has my full authority and the authority of the Government to carry on in Rhodesia as long as it wishes and I am glad that it is doing so. The trouble about violence is that it always causes over-reaction and one of the reasons why I have been so anxious to get a settlement in Rhodesia has been that unless we did, there could be repression and violence and repression again endlessly into the future.
§ Mr. WhiteheadWould the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Pearce Commission the view that no test of acceptability will be taken as covering the whole of Rhodesian opinion unless all detainees are seen by the Pearce Commission and not merely those who may now be seen? Would he accept that "all shades" of Rhodesian opinion should include those recently detained by the illegal Smith rôgime, including Mr. Todd?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeYes, Sir. Sir Glyn Jones saw Mr. Todd for two hours last week.
§ Mr. SteelIs the Foreign Secretary satisfied that the commission has adequate administrative back-up to enable people to have direct access to it without making arrangements through Rhodesian Government officials, as some reports say that in some parts of the country appointments have had to be arranged through district commissioners and the like?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeAs the hon. Gentleman knows, in all our colonial territories in the past arrangements were naturally made through district commissioners and the heads of tribes and to some extent that is no doubt so today, but Lord Pearce is fully aware that he 949 should not be dependent solely on these persons.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonAre not sanctions becoming rather a dead letter since the American chrome purchases? Although tribal bodies may wish to make collective representations, and some have done so, in favour of the proposals, is everything being done to ensure secrecy, because of widespread intimidation, for those individuals who wish to make their statements in private?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeYes, Sir.
§ Mr. HealeyIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the summary of the proposals circulated in Rhodesia states unequivocally that everything will go on as now if the proposals are not accepted by the Rhodesian people as a whole? As the Minister of State, Scottish Office stated unequivocally in another place last week that it was the Government's intention that sanctions should continue until and unless the whole agreement was carried through, as laid down in the White Paper, does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that by equivocating on this matter this afternoon he is undermining his own credibility and that of the Government in this matter?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe right hon. Gentleman can scarcely give me lectures about credibility. The statement, he will recollect, in the simplified version of the settlement for Rhodesians relates to the Rhodesian constitution and I am afraid that that would go on if there were not settlement.
§ Mr. HealeyWill the right hon. Gentleman now answer my question?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. There is to be a statement on Rhodesia later.
Following is the statement:An extensive programme of travel has been devised to enable the commissioners, working in pairs, to cover a great deal of the country. Seven teams begin their tours of the provinces on 17th January. The intention is that there should be two commissioners always available either in Salisbury or in Bulawayo, to receive views from representative groups who may wish to give them.Lord Pearce and the deputy chairman will also be available both in Salisbury and in Bulawayo and they will also visit other centres.The chairman's first visit to Bulawayo will be between Monday, 31st January, and Thurs- 950 day, 3rd February. The dates of his visits to other centres will be announced later.Since his arrival in Rhodesia Lord Pearce has found it desirable to increase the number of commissioners, originally set at 16, by two. I agreed to his request and accordingly arranged last week for two commissioners who had already been selected before the commission's departure from London, but who had been held in reserve, to join the team in Rhodesia. They are:
- Mr. J. C. Strong, H.M. Diplomatic Service, 1946–63 a member of H.M. Overseas Civil Service in Tanganyika. Joined Commonwealth Relations Office 1963.
- Mr. I. E. Butler, The Housing Corporation. Served in H.M. Overseas Civil Service in Gilbert & Ellice Islands 1955–60 and in Swaziland 1962–68. From 1968 to 1970 in charge of local government services of the Swaziland Government Ministry of Local Administration.
The procedure at the commission's hearings is to divide them into two parts, first to explain the nature of the proposals for a settlement and to answer factual questions about them. In this the commissioners draw upon the simplified version already distributed throughout the country. They are making use of appropriate visual aids. The second part consists of the hearing of views from witnesses either individually or in groups, and either in public or in private as the witnesses themselves choose.However, all the commissioners will shortly be returning to Salisbury in order to discuss with Lord Pearce whether any modifications are required in their programme, or in the working methods employed, in the light of experience.
§ 31. Mr. Strangasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the proposed educational and economic aid for Rhodesia will be additional to the overseas aid programme previously announced.
§ Mr. StrangJust how much say was it envisaged the British Government would have over how the money was spent? Was it intended that full details of those projects far which British money was given would be made available to the House?
§ Mr. KershawYes, Sir. The £5 million a year for 10 years to which the hon. Gentleman has referred would be spent on agreed projects and under supervision. That sum would also be matched by a contribution from the Rhodesian Government.