RHODESIA

HC Deb 19 January 1972 vol 829 cc464-77

3.33 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement.

Since I last spoke in this House on Rhodesia, hon. and right hon. Members will have been concerned at the reports of violence from different parts of that country, especially in the Gwelo district.

It is in the Government's view essential that the Pearce Commission should be enabled to carry out its task of testing Rhodesian opinion in conditions free of intimidation and violence, in which normal political activities are possible.

Against this background, the House will have been concerned, too, to have received the news of the arrest of Mr. Garfield Todd, his daughter and three others. On hearing the reports last night I immediately sent a personal message to Mr. Smith seeking to establish the facts behind these arrests.

In his reply Mr. Smith has said that they are cases of preventive detention arising from the internal security situation that has developed in the midlands area of Rhodesia during the last fortnight, under the 1970 Emergency Powers Regulations.

He has said that the reasons for detaining Mr. Todd and his daughter were not based on their publicly stated opposition to the settlement proposals, but that the decision was, on the contrary, taken solely on the grounds of security and the need to maintain law and order in Rhodesia, without which, as recent events in Gwelo have shown, it is not possible for the Pearce Commission to carry out its task.

It is, of course, for the Commission, which has the advantage of being on the spot, to satisfy itself that normal political activities are being permitted in Rhodesia, provided, as the proposals for a settlement make clear, that they are conducted in a peaceful and democratic manner. Lord Pearce, who has himself issued a statement in Salisbury expressing deep concern at these detentions, and has asked the Rhodesian Government for their reasons, will no doubt be considering the position in the light of Mr. Smith's reply and other information available to him in Salisbury.

I am arranging to send to Salisbury tonight the Head of the Rhodesia Department in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office so that he can, in consultation with our liaison officer there, and after discussion with all concerned, let me have an up-to-date assessment of the situation in the light of the recent events which have caused general concern.

In a matter of such importance I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate that it would not be right for me to say more about these arrests until I have received further full information from Rhodesia. I will keep the House informed.

Mr. Healey

May I first thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and ask him for an assurance that he will make a further statement to the House tomorrow in the light of any information he may receive between now and then?

May we be told the names of the three Africans who have been arrested with Mr. Todd and his daughter? I assure the right hon. Gentleman that my hon. Friends are not just concerned but are appalled by the arrest of Mr. Todd and his daughter, particularly against the background of the firm promise conveyed to the House by the right hon. Gentleman from Mr. Smith that normal political activities would be permitted throughout the period of consultation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Todd is one of the few Europeans in public life in Rhodesia who has won the confidence of the Africans, that he is an ex-Prime Minister aged 63, that Mr. Smith may have taken a step which will lead to the very violence that he purports to hope to avoid and that many of us will feel that this may well have been his purpose in carrying out the arrests, for it is already evident that all the evidence produced to the Pearce Commission by Africans in both the urban and tribal areas shows that there is overwhelming opposition to the proposals for a settlement?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my hon. Friends and I must rely entirely on newspaper reports for our understanding of what is happening in Rhodesia at this moment? Is he further aware that reports in newspapers which cannot be considered to be hostile to Her Majesty's Government—newspapers like the Daily Telegraph and the Financial Times—make it clear, first, that all the shootings and bayonetings which have taken place in Rhodesia in recent days have been carried out by the security forces responsible to the Smith régime and not by the Africans; secondly, that the violence in Gwelo followed and did not precede the use of tear gas against a peaceful demonstration by Africans who were seeking to present their views to representatives of Her Majesty's Government in the Pearce Commission inside Gwelo; and, third, that all the newspaper reports show that representatives of the African National Council did their best.

even after the use of tear gas by the Rhodesia forces, to prevent the use of violence by the demonstrators?

Has the Pearce Commission yet had an answer to the question it put to the Smith régime almost a week ago about the complaints made by the African National Council of interference by the Smith régime in its attempted activities in the tribal and urban areas?

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that unless Mr. Smith can produce satisfactory evidence that Mr. Garfield Todd, his daughter and the three arrested Africans have already taken action calculated to disturb public order in Rhodesia, he will insist on their immediate release.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I shall make another statement as early as I can. As I said, Mr. Philip Mansfield, the head of the Rhodesia Political Department, flies out tonight. I cannot very well promise a statement tomorrow, but I will certainly make another statement as soon as I possibly can. As to the names of the Africans arrested, I will ascertain those and convey them to the right hon. Gentleman. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have only just received the latest messages from Rhodesia and have been unable to obtain this detail.

As to the normal political activities, that is the whole purpose—to try to create conditions in which normal political activities can be carried out. The duty of the Pearce Commission is to take opinion from the great body of Rhodesians, African, Asian and European. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the Pearce Commission has to look beyond and beneath the attitudes of the minorities, of the right and the left, who are both dedicated to trying to destroy this settlement. [HON. MEMBERS "No."] I should have thought that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen know perfectly well that minorities in Rhodesia, both right and left, are trying to do their best to destroy this settlement. As to the complaints that Lord Pearce has made to Mr. Smith, it is for Lord Pearce to judge Mr. Smith's replies, and for Lord Pearce to decide whether the Commission can carry on with its work.

Mr. Hastings

Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is important to em- phasise the appalling consequences for Rhodesia and all her peoples should this opportunity be lost through disaster, from whatever source it may stem? Second, would he agree that normal political activity, as we understand it in Britain, is very difficult either to define or apply in central Africa, particularly in the light of recent experience of other parts of the African continent?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I have emphasised time and again how terribly dangerous it is to condone violence in any part of Africa and most of all now in Rhodesia.—[Interruption.] Those who have advocated violence as a political solution carry a great responsibility. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, but he will realise that I only received the information a moment or two before I came to the House. The names of the Africans are Mr. Elias Hananda, Mr. Edward Kumaio and Mr. Enos Choga.

Mr. David Steel

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that one of the consequences of the arrests made by Mr. Smith is that it prevents Mr. Todd from carrying out his visit to London next week to address meetings and take part in broadcasts to give the reaction of the Africans in Rhodesia to the settlement? Is he further aware that if it is the case that Mr. Smith's interpretation of allowing normal political activities is that only individuals may appear before the Pearce Commission to express their opposition to the settlement but that no one may organise collective opposition through meetings and the like, that is not an interpretation acceptable to Her Majesty's Government and this House? It is the responsibility of this Government, and not the Pearce Commission, to determine whether this is right. If that is the case, it is up to the right hon. Gentleman to recall the Pearce Commission.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

We selected responsible people to serve on the Pearce Commission, and very experienced people too, and it is for them to say whether they can work in these conditions or not.

Sir G. Sinclair

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us will welcome his prompt action in sending a personal emissary to Rhodesia to find out how far free expression of opinion is being allowed? There seems to be a great difference in the assessments in this country and in the eyes of the Rhodesian front of what normal political activity amounts to. I believe that it is not only the Pearce Commission that needs to be convinced about normal activity and that it can consult African opinion in Rhodesia in these conditions, but this House and the British people as well need to be convinced on this issue. I hope that, through the emissary who is going to Rhodesia tonight, my right hon. Friend will report the misgivings in this country about the sort of political freedom which will detain, at a time when he ought to be consulted, a former Prime Minister of Rhodesia, and make clear that this is not something we shall easily accept.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

We deeply regret both the violence and the reaction to violence. I personally deeply regret this. It has happened. I suggest that it must be for the Pearce Commission, which is on the spot, to decide whether it can carry on with its work. I repeat, it is for the Pearce Commission to take soundings of the great mass of Rhodesian opinion, and noisy minorities seldom represent the opinion of a country.

Mr. Judd

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his strictures about violence ring a little hollow when it is clear to the rest of the African continent, and indeed to the world, that the violence has been enshrined by the whole political system of the United Front in Rhodesia? Would not the right hon. Gentleman also agree that the question being asked throughout the Commonwealth at present is how we can possibly have any confidence in a settlement with this particular régime in the light of its conduct during the last few days?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

There is violence in many countries in Africa, and it takes various forms. We have seen one case just last week, not directed in any way against a white population or white government. We have to be very reticent before we generalise about this.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

For a true test of opinion, is it not essential that there should be freedom from violence and freedom from intimidation from any quarter in Rhodesia? As to the means of securing those ends, should not we await accurate information from my right hon. Friend's emissary rather than rely on what has been read in the newspapers by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whose whole conduct shows his determination to wreck a settlement? In view of the dire consequences of a failure of my right hon. Friend's efforts to reach a settlement, would it not now be better if all evidence were given to the Pearce Commission in private so that Africans, of whatever colour or opinion, can be quite sure, that they will not be subject to terrorism because of the opinions that they hold?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Whatever opinion we may have of the proposed terms of settlement, I should have thought that there was common opinion in this House that the Pearce Commission should be allowed to conduct its business in calm and peaceful conditions —that is my sole interest—and that normal political rights should be able to be quickly restored. In response to my hon. Friend, I think that the Pearce Commission must decide what evidence it takes in private and what in public. I understand that it is doing both.

Mr. Harold Wilson

The whole House will be concerned about the difficulties in which this Commission is now trying to operate, difficulties caused in this case by the activities of the present régime in Rhodesia. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is mounting evidence that the Commission is not operating as some of us hoped it would, in that, for example, one of its members is reported—I hope wrongly—as answering an African who said, "Why cannot we have our leaders to explain it to us?", by saying, "We are seeing your leaders", which is not true in the case of Mr. Sithole? Will the right hon. Gentleman insist that the Commission sees all the African leaders? Second, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are a little concerned about two of his remarks this afternoon. I am sure that on consideration he will perhaps suggest that we have misinterpreted them. Twice he used the phrase "destroy the settlement", when he said that the Commission's task was to get behind minorities on either side who are seeking to destroy the settlement. The right hon. Gentleman originally proposed the idea of the fifth principle, as I proposed the idea of a commission in 1965. Does he not recognise that the task of the Commission is not to deal with those who want to destroy the settlement but to see whether the proposed terms are acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole?

Further, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to refer—I hope that I got him wrong—to the arrests of Mr. Garfield Todd and his daughter and others as a reaction to violence; that was the phrase the right hon. Gentleman used. Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence that they had any responsibility for violence other than peacefully saying in Rhodesia, as they have a right to do, what they feel about the terms of the settlement?

The right hon. Gentleman knows that this is a police State in which the Commission is operating. If I used the phrase first, it was echoed by the present Prime Minister from this Box. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that we in this House have a responsibility for the Commission's ability to function and for our decision after the Commission has reported. The last thing I would want to do in this situation would be to propose the recall of the Commission; I think that would be a fairly general feeling throughout the House. The Commission must be allowed to work.

I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, instead of his being an apologist on the Dingle Foot case and on the question of the Labour Party mission, he should remember that the legal responsibility for Rhodesia adheres in this House and in Her Majesty's Government, that he is dealing with an illegal régime operating a police State, and that he should do more than just report what that State tells him and should assert what this House must insist on.

Finally, if this is how Mr. Smith behaves at a time when one would expect him to be trying to put the best face on his Rhodesian Front and when he should be behaving himself so as to get a favourable report and attitude in this country, what guarantee is there that he will not tear up the agreement if it is arrived at?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition agrees that we should all try to maintain the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia. To do that, the Commission must be able to operate in conditions which are satisfactory to the Commission.

I think that the right hon. Gentleman cannot quite have heard what I said. Of course the function of the Commission is to assess the opinion of all the people in Rhodesia. All that I was saying was that there have been minorities on both sides who have been out to wreck a settlement. This is not the concern of the Commission. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman had been with me in Salisbury and had heard the minorities—left and right—arguing, he would realise that there are some such elements. At any rate, the business of the Commission is to assess the opinion of the people of Rhodesia as a whole. That is its sole concern.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Sir Dingle Foot. I said—I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was here then—that I very much regretted the rejection of Sir Dingle Foot's application. Now the Africans are to be represented by Mr. Sheridan, who has represented Rhodesians on many other occasions on appeals in the courts. However, I certainly regret that Sir Dingle Foot was not able to go there.

Mr. Lane

The steps which have already been taken by my right hon. Friend will certainly be welcomed, but will he also make it clear that the Government will take up vigorously with Mr. Smith any request they may receive from the Commission for help in securing conditions for the test of acceptability?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Michael Stewart

Is it not the fact that among the reasons given by the Smith régime for the arrest of Mr. and Miss Todd there is reference to incitement to violence? Does the Foreign Secretary believe, or does anybody believe, that either of these two people would engage in incitement to violence? If it is true, as the Smith régime apparently suggests, that ordinary political activity by these two people would result in violence, does not this make it clear beyond doubt that the whole régime is rotten from top to bottom?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

What Mr. Smith said was that the decision was taken solely on considerations of security and the maintenance of law and order in Rhodesia. The implication of that may be as the right lion. Gentleman said.

Mr. Evelyn King

Was not an obligation rightly placed upon Mr. Ian Smith to preserve peaceful political conditions? Does it not follow from that that it is his function to keep the peace? Must not we in the House accept what must follow from that—that, if Mr. Smith is to keep the peace. some degree of security must be exercised by him, that that may sometimes involve arrest, and that he cannot maintain that function unless he carries that out?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

In order that there should be normal political conditions in which the Pearce Commission can work, obviously there must be law and order; but I must not in any way be held to condone what Mr. Smith has done in this context.

Mr. C. Pannell

Will the Foreign Secretary be a little more sensitive to his own responsibilities in this matter; because it appears to the House that we are moving now from farce to tragedy? Or will he be stimulated to effective action and assert the authority of the House only when Lord Pearce has been taken into detention?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I will certainly agree to the right hon. Gentleman's plea that I should show sensitivity, but I hope, too, that he will not be frivolous in this very serious matter.

Mr. Cormack

Bearing in mind the acute concern that is felt in all quarters of the House, will my right hon. Friend give consideration to sending out a small commission of not more than two or three back benchers who could be attached to the Pearce Commission as observers?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I have made a suggestion—I do not know what the response will be—that there should be an all-party delegation from the House to observe the work of the Pearce Commission.

Mr. Grimond

Will the Foreign Secretary reconsider the phrase he has used about minorities? How does he know that only minorities oppose the settlement? He is so anxious to get a settlement that anyone who opposes it must, in his view, be in a minority and be prone to violence. The very question which the Pearce Commission has been sent out to determine he constantly begs by saying that only minorities oppose the settlement.

On the question of force or violence, Rhodesia is a police State; and unfortunately police States depend upon force. Is he telling the House that he thinks that Mr. Smith is guaranteeing free political expression in Rhodesia just now and that the arrest of Mr. Todd and his daughter was because they were advocating force?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

No, I am not saying that. I have not the facts on which to make any such statement. What I am saying is that it is the job of the Pearce Commission to ascertain the opinion of the people of Rhodesia as a whole. When I say that there are some minorities on the right and on the left opposed to the settlement, I know this to be true; I talked to them and I know. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman asks how I know that they are minorities. They were minorities when they were talking to me, because the great mass of people were prepared to consider these matters. [Interruption.] The Pearce Commission may find that all the people of Rhodesia are against the settlement. It may find that all the people are for it. Some people on the right and on the left in Rhodesia have said publicly that they wish to destroy the settlement.

Mr. Harold Wilson

The right hon. Gentleman said a few minutes ago that he regrets the exclusion of Sir Dingle Foot. On other questions, he has just taken note of what he has been told. Will not he assert with the regime the position of this House and the position of Her Majesty's Government, as I hope it is? Is he just going to act as an apologist on all these questions—on the question of the Labour Party mission as well as an all-party mission? Is he really just sending a message to Mr. Smith and then conveying the answer back, if Mr. Smith has the courtesy to send one? Does not he realise that under the law—and he did not answer this question—he is responsible, by a decision of this House made as recently as last November, for the conduct of affairs in Rhodesia, and that this responsibility was confirmed by a decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council two or three years ago, so far as his writ runs? Even if that were not so, if he has been negotiating with Mr. Smith, has he no standing arising from that? Since the agreement has not yet been ratified by this House and has not yet been approved by the Commission as coming under the fifth principle, does not the right hon. Gentleman as a negotiator feel able to say something in the matter of Sir Dingle Foot, in the matter of the Labour Party mission, in the matter of the arrests without his having been given the evidence on which they are based—has he even asked for that? In all these matters it is no good his wringing his hands like a tuppenny-ha'penny washerwoman. Will he act like a Secretary of State?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

The right hon. Gentleman is—and this is not unusual—being less than fair—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman has made an attack, and I must be allowed to answer this. He will very well remember the hangings in Rhodesia and the reply he had to give to the House: It is true, as we all recognise that we had no ability to stop these hangings …". —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1968; Vol. 760, c. 1628.] That was under the right hon. Gentleman and his own Government. His right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) said later: Britain has responsibility for Rhodesia without power inside Rhodesia. History made Rhodesia a legal and moral British responsibility, but as history has turned out we have been denied the physical power to control events on the ground … ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd October, 1968; Vol. 770, c. 1096.] What I am trying to do is to make the most of the remaining influence that Britain has and keeps, and through that influence—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman delivered an attack, and I must in fairness be allowed to answer it. I want through that influence to try to help the Africans in a way in which they can never be helped otherwise.

Mr. Chapman

That there are grave misgivings on both sides of the House over the events in Rhodesia in the past 72 hours, there can be no doubt. Is not the critically important thing at present that Lord Pearce and his fellow members of the Commission should be asked to make the earliest statement on whether they think they are being inhibited in any way in carrying out the difficult functions entrusted to them, and that those functions should include the right to see anyone in Rhodesia and the right of anyone in Rhodesia to make representations to it at the earliest opportunity?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Yes, Sir. I think that Lord Pearce is in the best position of all to do that.

Mr. Driberg

When the right hon. Gentleman referred to the minorities whom he saw, how does he know that some of them were not a majority? How does he know that they were only minorities? Is he suggesting that minorities have no rights to express their opinions?

An Hon. Member

The hon. Gentleman is twisting it.

Mr. Driberg

Not at all. That is what the right hon. Gentleman said. Will the right hon. Gentleman guarantee to the House that the Pearce Commission will be allowed privately to see Mr. Garfield Todd and his daughter should that be desired?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I have no reason to think that should Mr. Garfield Todd wish to see the Commission any obstacle would be put in the way. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members opposite will not over-emphasise this business of minorities. I do not know what is a minority and what is not in Rhodesia, any more than—[Interruption.] All I do know is that there are people at both extremes who wish to wreck the settlement. That is perhaps a better way to put it.

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles

Is not it a fact that whether we like it or not Mr. Ian Smith has de facto responsibility for law and order in Rhodesia under present conditions to enable the Pearce Commission to operate properly and to preserve the lives and property of all races in Rhodesia? Therefore, is not it reasonable that Mr. Ian Smith should have a large say about who is at liberty in Rhodesia and who is not, and which people from Britain, including Members of this House, should visit Rhodesia, if those people are dedicated to the failure of the settlement?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

As I have said, some people are in favour of the settlement—I am, naturally—and Labour right hon. and hon. Members are against it. But we are both interested in seeing the Pearce Commission having a fair run and being able to do its job. I should have thought that everyone could join in that. Therefore, we want to see conditions restored in which it can do the job well. It is for Lord Pearce to say and judge whether it can carry on with the task.

Miss Lestor

As the right hon. Gentleman said that extremists on both sides were trying to wreck a settlement, will he ask the representative of the Foreign Office who is flying to Rhodesia to find out how many of the people who have been shot, bayonetted, arrested or detained were demonstrating for or advocating acceptance of the settlement?

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I cannot answer the hon. Lady, because I do not know whether anybody could find out whether they were demonstrating in favour of the settlement or against it.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We must move on.