Northern Ireland

HC Deb 17 February 1972 vol 831 cc591-600

5. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the arrangements by which the Government of Northern Ireland indicate to the British Army in Northern Ireland the tactical objectives which they wish it to pursue.

The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel)

The tactical objectives of the Army in Northern Ireland are a matter for the General Officer Commanding, who is responsible to the Ministry of Defence. He works in the closest cooperation with the Northern Ireland Government through the Joint Security Committee.

Mr. Cronin

In spite of that rather vague answer, is not the British Army in Northern Ireland in effect the agent of the Stormont Government? While we feel nothing but admiration for the restraint and discipline of the British Army generally, is it not an intolerable situation that, whatever the provocation, they should be killing, wounding and generally harassing the Catholic population, under the direction of the highly partisan Protestant Stormont Government? Is it not now urgent that responsibility for security should be transferred to Westminster?

Lord Balniel

I must repudiate some of the contents of the question. The Army is acting in support of the constitutional civil authority. The Northern Ireland Government are constitutionally responsible for law and order in the Province. However, the G.O.C. has overall responsibility for security operations, and he exercises this responsibility to the Defence Department, which is answerable to this House.

Mr. McMaster

In view of the terrible murders in Northern Ireland within the past week and the continuing explosions in public places, with reckless disregard for human life and safety, will my hon. Friend ensure that the Forces make the maximum effort to search out the republican terrorists and restore law and order in every part of Northern Ireland, including the Catholic areas, where this would be greatly appreciated?

Lord Balniel

The Army is searching out terrorists who are breaking the law. That is what it is there for.

Mr. Fitt

Will not the hon. Gentleman now concede that to 40 per cent. of the population of Northern Ireland it appears that the British Army is acting in a military rôle in support of a totally corrupt and discredited Government in Northern Ireland? Does he not now see that the only answer is to transfer security at the earliest possible opportunity to Westminster, before there can be any confidence in the rôle of the British military in Northern Ireland?

Lord Balniel

This raises very much wider questions than are contained in the original Question. They are, of course, matters for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who pointed out the implications in his speech on 1st February.

Sir R. Cary

May I ask my hon. Friend to say that General Ford and his troops are not behaving in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin)?

Lord Balniel

I am sure that the remarks of my hon. Friend echo the feeling throughout the whole House that the troops have exercised incredible restraint and have used a minimum of force in rooting out terrorists.

Mr. John Morris

Will the Minister accept that those of us who have been in Northern Ireland very recently wish to pay the highest tribute to our forces there, but at the same time some of us are distinctly unhappy about the present arrangements by which, while British forces themselves decide day-to-day tactics, far too much influence comes from Northern Ireland Ministers who dominate the joint meetings of the Joint Security Committee? Is it not impossible for British Forces to serve two masters for any length of time?

Lord Balniel

I have explained that the G.O.C. has full responsibility for overall military operations and that in that respect is answerable to this House.

6. Mr. Evelyn King

asked the Minister of State for Defence what report he has had of the incident which occurred in December, 1971, in which a soldier was shot whilst guarding his officer who was giving a television interview in an exposed and dangerous place; and if he will ensure in the future that no soldier is exposed to wounds or possible injury for non-military reasons.

The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith)

At about 4.15 p.m. on 27th December when a routine patrol was on duty in the Grosvenor Road area of Belfast, their company commander agreed to give an interview—which was not pre-planned—about the risks of playing in the street with realistic toy weapons. Three shots were fired at the patrol. One hit a soldier who was not, I am glad to say, seriously injured. No fire was returned because the gunman did not present a clear target. Every precaution is taken to ensure that troops on duty are not exposed to unnecessary risk.

Mr. King

Does my hon. Friend accept that with television the temptation to dramatise is inevitably always present and sometimes causes unacceptable risk? Will he ensure that orders are such that soldiers, if they must give interviews for television or radio, shall do so under cover and with the minimum of risk to themselves?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I sympathise with the concern which my hon. Friend shows in this context, but I have to tell him that no soldier, and no officer, is compelled to give a television interview. Company commanders may on the spot decide on their own initiative to give such interviews, but I assure him that they are well aware of the need to avoid any needless risk because of the requirements of television. Their over-riding responsibility is the security of their men and carrying out their duties.

Sir G. Nabarro

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that British troops in Northern Ireland are on active service? Why should they be expected to conduct their legitimate duties under the surveillance of television cameras, which in my opinion ought to be excluded altogether from battle areas?

Mr. Johnson Smith

My hon. Friend raises a question which is much wider than that which was put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Evelyn King). It raises the whole question of censorship. The Government are opposed to censorship in Northern Ireland, and I know that the Army is most definitely opposed to it.

7. Mr. Duffy

asked the Minister of State for Defence what courses of training in crowd control are provided for British troops before their deployment in Northern Ireland, and if this applies to all units.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

All operational units receive detailed training instructions to enable them to conduct intensive training in all aspects of internal security operations before being posted to Northern Ireland. In addition, units other than infantry send numbers of their officers to specialised courses in order to prepare them for training their units.

Mr. Duffy

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the whole House is aware of the fighting reputation of the Parachute Regiment, including the First Battalion, and of the training and the qualities which distinguish it from other units, but is he quite sure that those qualities were appropriate to the crowd situation which existed in the Bogside on 30th January? Was it not a case of bad staff work and wrong troops in the wrong place at the wrong time—[Interruption.]—and furthermore—

Mr. Biggs-Davison

On a point of order—

Mr. Speaker

I deprecate points of order at Question time, but I will call the hon. Member.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

This point of order must be put now. As a judicial inquiry is going on into events affecting this unit, and the inquiry is presided over by a judge, is it in order to prejudice the outcome of the inquiry?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member is quite right. I do not think the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) should go into a matter which could be the subject of the current inquiry.

Mr. Duffy

Of course I accept your Ruling. Mr. Speaker, but you will recall that the Minister went much further than I did on Tuesday, 1st February. However, I have no intention of following him. I shall merely conclude by asking whether he is quite satisfied that the presence of the Parachute Regiment in trying situations in Northern Ireland is always welcome to other units, notably the county regiments who showed more restraint in more trying situations?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I make it quite clear to the hon. Member that the Parachute Regiment has upheld the very fine traditions of the British Army in Northern Ireland and has carried out its duties in the same way and has been subjected to the same training as have other units in the British Army. I am sorry that the hon. Member should choose this occasion to cast a slur on the Regiment's reputation.

Mr. Brewis

Is not this a typical example of the way in which British units, particularly Scottish units, have been traduced by hon. Members opposite?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned that. There was a time when some people tried to criticise Scottish regiments in the same terms as others have attempted to criticise the Parachute Regiment. They are all regiments of the British Army subject to training and internal security duties and they have a fine reputation as models of self-restraint and self-discipline.

Mr. J. T. Price

While all of us very deeply regret the need for large numbers of British troops to be in Northern Ireland, is it not bad enough for our troops to have to run all the perils of being shot at by gunmen without having their pain increased by smears in this House?

Mr. Duffy

On a point of order. I said nothing, as scrutiny of tomorrow's Hansard will bear out, that cast a slur on the Parachute Regiment.

16. Mr. George Cunningham

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the new allegations by prisoners in Northern Ireland of torture by the security forces in statements sent to him by the hon. Member for Islington, South-West.

Lord Balniel

These allegations were passed to the General Officer Commanding, Northern Ireland on 17th January. They are now being investigated by the Royal Ulster Constabulary, with the full co-operation of the Army authorities so far as military personnel are concerned. I understand however that the police investigations are being greatly hampered at present by the refusal of 13 of the 19 complainants to make statements or cooperate at all with the police inquiries.

Mr. Cunningham

Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that that is an amazing reply suggesting that he is putting an investigation into the hands of the R.U.C. when the people involved will certainly not accept the impartiality of the R.U.C.? Will he accept that the allegations made in the statements I have sent to him are at least as serious as those proved in the Compton Report and that, if true, they suggest that the Army has shifted from official methods of interrogation to semi-official methods having the same result? Is he telling the House that he does not intend to use a British Government representative to investigate?

Lord Balniel

I am simply telling the House that the allegations are being investigated by the normal and proper methods.

Mr. McMaster

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the main Republican effort is aimed at discrediting both the Army and the police? Will he back up both in the circumstances?

Lord Balniel

It is certainly true that allegations are being made and a war of propaganda is being waged against the authorities whose purpose is to secure law and order.

Mr. Maclennan

In case there is any misunderstanding, will the right hon. Gentleman make plain the division of responsibilities in this matter as between the R.U.C. and the Army and wherein the responsibility of the Army could possibly lie?

Lord Balniel

Allegations against the Army are in the first instance investigated by the Royal Military Police. If it is necessary for them to be investigated by the civil authorities, the Army cooperates fully in making the results of its investigations available to the civil authorities.

17. Mr. Brewis

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will now set up rest camps in Scotland for soldiers on stand-by duty in Northern Ireland.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

There is little that I can add to the answer my hon. Friend was given on 22nd March, 1971, except to say that a good deal has been done in the meantime to improve local conditions and to make it easier to visit families in Great Britain on short leaves. However troops on standby must necessarily he immediately available.—[Vol. 814. c. 44–5.]

Mr. Brewis

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that by using the Stranraer-Larne ferry troops can be in Belfast inside three hours, and by using aircraft they can be there in a few minutes, and that all units and the R.U.C. would be welcome across the Channel?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am glad to hear that they would be welcome, and I appreciate the suggestion. There are, however, occasions when three hours is too long a period to elapse before troops who are on standby can be brought into internal security positions. Much as I appreciate my hon. Friend's comments and invitation, I feel that we should let the present situation rest.

Mr. George Thomson

Is the Minister satisfied with the adequacy of the present arrangements for rest and recreation for the Forces in Northern Ireland? Will the Minister recall that the Forces are on four months' duty, are working normally 18 hours a day and are fortunate to have one day off a month? Would it not be worth investigating more vigorously the sugestions made by his hon. Friend?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I have looked and will continue to look at every opportunity to improve the conditions for our troops in Northern Ireland. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has firsthand knowledge of those conditions, and I should be pleased to hear any further practical suggestions he cares to make. They will be given most earnest consideration.

20. Mr. Hugh Jenkins

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many persons have been arrested by the Army to date in Northern Ireland.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

Between 1st January, 1971, and 14th February, 1972, the Army arrested 2,078 persons with a view to their possibly being charged under the criminal law with offences in connection with the civil disturbances.

Between 9th August, 1971, and 14th February, 1972, the security forces together arrested 2,447 persons with a view to their possible detention and internment. I regret that it is not possible without disproportionate effort to establish how many of those were arrested by the Army.

Mr. Jenkins

Are not these very disquieting figures? Are not the purposes for which the Army is currently being used in Northern Ireland very different from those for which the troops were originally sent? Are not many people in the Army disquieted about the way in which troops are employed and should not the current activities of the Army be re-examined with a view to possible redeployment and even withdrawal?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am afraid that, starting in February, 1971, there has been a considerable escalation in violence and disorder in the Province. This has inevitably resulted in an increased number of arrests.

Mr. Pounder

Do I assume that the figure of 2,078 given by my hon. Friend represents persons arrested on direct confrontation with the Army and security forces as distinct from persons who may be on the wanted list? If not, what is the number of arrests resulting from direct confrontation with the Army over that period?

Mr. Johnson Smith

Those arrests were of people charged under the criminal law for offences in connection with civil disturbances. The wider figure I gave for the security forces as a whole takes into account those whom my hon. Friend describes as on the wanted list.

Mr. Bidwell

Does the Minister agree that, much as we may sympathise with the soldiers in Northern Ireland who are fighting a ghost war, the examples of alleged brutality which are being circulated by certain organisations are most disturbing and, if only one part true, can only exacerbate the situation? Is it possible that a fringe might be acting in a not entirely reasonable way because of the whole grimy situation in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Johnson Smith

This raises a wider question than that on the Order Paper and is designed by implication to attack the reputation of our Forces there.

Major-General Jack d'Avigdor-Goldsmid

Does not my hon. Friend agree, despite the opinions expressed by the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins), that the morale of the British Army in Northern Ireland is sky-high?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I certainly confirm that.

Mr. Orme

Is the Minister aware that I witnessed the aftermath of six arrests by the British Army in Derry? All the people arrested were released within 24 hours. The British Army was put in grave peril in carrying out this operation, which was based on information provided by the Special Branch of the R.U.C. Some of us on this side of the House who wore uniform for many years know what it is like to face difficult situations when wearing uniform and are concerned about the position of British troops. What will the Minister do about it?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I appreciate the concern shown by the hon. Gentleman for the position of British troops in Northern Ireland. That position is unchanged, I assure him.

Mr. John Morris

Will the Minister withdraw the suggestion he made that my hon. Friend the Member for Southall (Mr. Bidwell) attacked the reputation of the British Army? Will he confirm that once a person is arrested he becomes the sole responsibility of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

Mr. Johnson Smith

Yes, I gladly confirm the hon. Gentleman's last point. I do not want to inflame the feelings of the House on matters of this kind, but that is how the hon. Member's question struck me at the time. He put a question which was much wider than that which appears on the Order Paper and seemed by implication to be attacking the reputation of regiments of the British Army.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins

On a point of order. I wish to state that I meant no reflection on the morale of the troops in Northern Ireland. I merely suggested that some of them might be more intelligent and sensitive than hon. Gentlemen opposite.