HC Deb 14 February 1972 vol 831 cc3-15
2. Mr. Wall

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the work of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia.

5. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress made by the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia; and whether he is still satisfied that full and free political expression is being allowed to all Rhodesians of all races.

9. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement about the situation in Rhodesia.

12. Mr. Molloy

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on recent developments in Rhodesia.

49. Mr. Clinton Davis

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the activities of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia.

52. Mr. Robert Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the work of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia.

The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Joseph Godber)

The Commissioners are continuing their operations in different parts of the country. In a statement issued on 7th February, Lord Pearce said that in certain circumstances he might have to conclude that there have been infringements of the agreement that normal political activities would be permitted during the test of acceptability. My right hon. Friend has made representations to Mr. Smith about the matters to which Lord Pearce referred. Lord Pearce none the less still believes that the commission can usefully continue with its work, and Her Majesty's Government accept his judgment on this.

Mr. Wall

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the two months' delay in sending out the Pearce Commission may prove fatal to the settlement terms? What plans do the Government have in the event of a "No" by the Africans?

Mr. Godber

I do not think there was any undue delay, although I know that my hon. Friend has held this view. It is far too early to give a view about what should be done in the event of such a reply from Lord Pearce, and I therefore feel that we must await the outcome of the Commission before reaching a conclusion.

Mr. Hamilton

Is it not the case that Her Majesty's Government have already made it clear that irrespective of what Lord Pearce and his Commission say, the Government intend to carry out the agreement that has been reached between Mr. Ian Smith and the Foreign Secretary? May we have an undertaking that if the Pearce Commission says that African opinion is against the proposals, the Government will continue with sanctions?

Mr. Gobber

In the first part of that supplementary question the hon. Gentleman is completely wrong; he makes a completely inaccurate assumption. We must await the reply from Lord Pearce and decide what to do in the light of his report.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Does not the fact that President Kaunda, unlike Mr. Smith, has found it necessary to lock up practically the entire Opposition show that it is very difficult to have in that part of Africa normal political activity as we understand it here without relapse into intimidation, violence and confusion?

Mr. Hamilton

Nonsense.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

It is not nonsense. It is a fact.

Can my right hon. Friend say when we are likely to hear the decision of the Commissioners as to whether there is widespread intimidation of Africans in Rhodesia?

Mr. Godber

I think it is fair to say, in answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, that ideas about normal political activity are certainly different in this country from what they are in parts of Africa. I really do not believe that I can add anything at this stage in reply to the second part.

Mr. Molloy

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that Her Majesty's Government still have responsibility for Rhodesia? Does he agree that the treatment of the Todds is utterly disgraceful? Is it not about time that decent people in that country, white and black, were encouraged by a statement from the British Government condemning the unscrupulous renegades there? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that sanctions and everything else that can possibly be imposed on the illegal régime is imposed in the name of British democracy and all for which this House stands?

Mr. Godber

There is a later Question specifically about the Todds. I cannot accept the extreme views which the hon. Gentleman is expressing.

Mr. Molloy

Extreme?

Mr. Godber

We are seeking to find an honourable settlement to the matter.

Mr. Davis

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the Frost Programme on television last night Mr. Smith was shown as being evasive and shifty and a pathological liar? What reliance can this or any Government plan on the word of such a man? What steps are we taking, like the New Zealand Government, to condemn the attitude of the Smith régime towards the Todds?

Mr. Godber

I am afraid that I did not have the pleasure of seeing the programme to which the hon. Member refers. We are concerned with the proposals for a settlement negotiated by my right hon. Friend, and it is with this that we are dealing.

Mr. Healey

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Pearce himself has now publicly condemned the Smith régime for breaking its promise to the British Government to allow normal political activities? In the case of the Todds and the Chinamanos, can the right hon. Gentleman say what representations the Government have made in the light of Lord Pearce's statement? Further, can he tell the House what progress is being made for the sending of an all-party delegation to Rhodesia, given the fact that it is now several weeks since the Liberal and Labour Parties nominated their representatives?

Mr. Godber

It is not quite right to say that Lord Pearce has condemned in the terms which the right hon. Gentleman has used. I have indicated that subsequent to that statement by Lord Pearce my right hon. Friend sent a special message to Mr. Smith in relation to the matters raised by the right hon. Gentleman, but I cannot give any indication of the contents of that message.

In regard to the proposed all-party delegation, I have only this morning received a further long message from Mr. Smith. His reply remains equivocal, and we are sending a further message asking him to let us have a clear answer. The position at this stage is that Mr. Smith apparently remains unwilling to accept an all-party mission which includes the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) or the hon. Members for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) and for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel).

4. Mr. Terry Davis

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he now expects the Pearce Commission to leave Rhodesia.

Mr. Godber

It is entirely at the discretion of Lord Pearce to decide how long the Commission needs to remain in Rhodesia. At his Press conference in London on 20th December, Lord Pearce said that he hoped that the work of the Commission on the ground in Rhodesia could be completed in two months.

Mr. Terry Davis

Does not the right hon. Gentleman have any idea how much longer it will take for the Pearce Commission to make its report? Is no timetable available?

Mr. Godber

I thought that my right hon. Friend made it very clear that this was left to Lord Pearce. I think it right that it should be left to Lord Pearce rather than that he should be given a specific timetable. It is for him to judge what is needed to carry out as full an investigation as he requires. I do not think I would wish to press him in this respect.

Mr. Healey

In the light of the astonishing reply given by the Minister a moment ago that Mr. Smith has rejected all the members of the delegation proposed by the Liberal and Labour Parties, and as even if the Commission is there for two months only three weeks will remain for an all-party delegation to go out and observe its work, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he or his right hon. Friend ever intend to stand up for the rights of this House in the matter?

Mr. Godber

It is rather unwise of the right hon. Gentleman to seek to make that point again and again in this House, as he does, when he knows perfectly well that the Government of which he was a member were quite unable to enforce their wishes in regard to Rhodesia. We have to accept the position as it is on the ground, and it is no good pretending that we are in a position to enforce the Government's views.

Mr. Healey

rose

Mr. Speaker

Order. There are still several more Questions on the Order Paper on Rhodesia.

6. Mr. Clinton Davis

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement concerning the imprisonment of Mr. Garfield Todd and Miss Judith Todd by the illegal régime in Rhodesia.

Mr. Godber

As the House is aware, Mr. Garfield Todd and his daughter have been in detention since 18th January. Lord Pearce stated on 7th February that the Rhodesian authorities have not as yet revealed to the Commission the evidence on which the decision to detain Mr. Todd and his daughter was based.

Mr. Davis

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is an utterly disgraceful reply and that the Government seem to be washing their hands of the whole affair? What representations have they made to the Rhodesia Government about it? Do they approve or disapprove of the situation? What do they think about the treatment being afforded to this very sick man by the Smith régime? Does the Minister damned well care about the whole issue?

Mr. Godber

The hon. Gentleman should not misrepresent the Government's position. I was giving a factual reply on this point, which is what I thought the hon. Member wanted. The Government regret the detention and have said so many times. We also deplore the absence of any reason for the detention. We have made that abundantly clear. We have made representations on a number of occasions, including a further representation by my right hon. Friend himself towards the end of last week.

Mr. John Mendelson

Is the Minister aware that on Thursday during business questions the Leader of the House assured me on the point I then raised concerning Mr. Garfield Todd's health and said specifically that new representations would be made? Perhaps I may be allowed again to put the point I then made: that in view of the statement made by Mrs. Todd, which the right hon. Gentleman's Department must have seen, about the serious effect on the deteriorating state of health of Mr. Todd that the degree of detention he is suffering will have, his release on medical and compassionate grounds is now absolutely urgent. Will the right hon. Gentleman fulfil the promise which the Leader of the House gave me last week to make new representations on those lines?

Mr. Godber

Mr. Todd's health is a matter about which we are very much concerned, and we have already made representations. His daughter's health is the subject of a later Question.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

Will the right hon. Gentleman also make representations about the Chinamanos? Mr. Chinamano also has a heart condition. His five children, aged between nine and 14, are left alone at home to look after themselves during this period of detention. It really is unforgivable if we are to concentrate only on the two white internees as distinct from the two black internees. The usual reply which the Government give about these representations is that they have no power in Rhodesia, but although they may have no power there they do have influence as a result of the present stage of the proposals that have been put forward by both sides for the settlement of the dispute. Do the Government have—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have allowed the hon. Gentleman to go so far but I can allow him to go no further. In fact, I think that, strictly speaking, this supplementary question does not arise out of the Question on the Order Paper. I cannot allow the hon. Member to go further.

Mr. Godber

Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano were directly included in the last representations that were made. There is no question here of differentiating between white and black.

7. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the United States authorities regarding their decision to endorse the lifting of sanctions against imports into the United States of America of non-ferrous metals from Rhodesia; which metals are affected by this decision; and what was the proportion of total Rhodesian exports of each of the metals affected going to the United States of America in the last full year prior to the unilateral declaration of independence.

Mr. Godber

On the first part of my Friend's Question the answer is "None, Sir". On my hon. Friend's second and third questions, with permission, I am circulating such details as are available in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. I am sure that these details will be inspected by hon. Members on both sides with great interest. Can he tell the House whether the Government have any plans for moving the Beira Patrol to the mouth of the Hudson River?

Mr. Godber

I do not think that there is any proposal by the Government to make any changes in present dispositions in regard to sanctions until we hear the outcome of the proposals and the report of the Pearce Commission.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the Minister aware that his reply, "None", is quite staggering? Will he confirm that Rhodesia is a British responsibility; that the reference was made by the predecessor Government to the United Nations; that mandatory sanctions were imposed by the Security Council and have never been revoked; that the United States is in breach of these mandatory sanctions, and that no representations whatever have been made by the Government?

Mr. Godber

I note the right hon. Gentleman's surprise, but when one considers the massive evasion of sanctions which has taken place elsewhere I am not prepared to single out for criticism a country which has up to now upheld sanctions to the full and is now making a strictly limited relaxation.

Following are the details:

The operative clause of the United States of America Military Procurement Bill reads:— Section 10. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, on and after January 1 1972, the President may not prohibit or regulate the importation into the United States of any material determined to be strategic and critical pursuant to the provisions of this Act, if such material is the producet of any foreign country or area not listed as a communist-dominated country or area in General Headnote 3 (D) of the tariff schedules of the United States (19 U.S.C. 1202), for so long as the importation into the United States of material of that kind which is the product of such communist-dominated countries or areas is not prohibited by any provision of law. It is not known precisely what Rhodesian products might be covered by the U.S.A. Treasury's General Licence which has subsequently been issued in implementation of this Clause, but for the non-ferrous minerals which have so far been mentioned by the United States' authorities as possibly affected, the percentage figures requested by my honourable Friend are as follows:
Proportion OF Domestic Exports of each commodity exported to the U.S.A. in 1965
Per cent.
1 Chrome ore 46
2 Ferro-chrome nil
3 Copper
(a) Refined, unwrought 12.6
(b) Concentrates, bar and rod and copper alloys nil
4 Manganese nil
5 Nickel nil
6 Asbestos 9

Source: Rhodesian Annual Statement of External Trade 1965.

11. Mr. Hugh Jenkins

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Common wealth Affairs how many political prisoners are detained without trial in Rhodesia.

Mr. Godber

My latest information is that the total of those held under ministerial detention orders is 67. That total includes Mr. Todd and his daughter, and Mr. and Mrs. Chinamano. Some people are also being held under 30-day police detention orders, but the Rhodesian authorities have not made available information about the number involved.

Mr. Jenkins

The right hon. Gentleman has regretted and deplored, but would he not at least go to the length of protesting and condemning? Would he not send someone to Rhodesia particularly to see Miss Todd—myself if he likes, or someone from this side of the House?

Mr. Rost

The hon. Gentleman would be locked up, too.

Mr. Jenkins

Perhaps so. Let us see whether they have the guts to lock up a Member of this House. Would the right hon. Gentleman put the matter to the test by sending out someone from this side of the House, someone known to Miss Todd and who would be trusted by her to bring back a message to the right hon. Gentleman, especially in view of Mr. Smith's studied ignorance of this matter, as we saw on television last night?

Mr. Godber

I prefer to leave this to Lord Pearce and his colleagues and to the representations made by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

What is the corresponding figure for political prisoners detained in Zambia?

Mr. Godber

I have no information about that.

Mr. Foley

Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that Mr. Smith's statement broadcast on television last night that there were about 1,000 prisoners is an immense departure from the situation that existed when the Foreign Secretary and Mr. Smith reached agreement in their talks in Salisbury? Would the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House the extent of the Pearce Commission's responsibilities? In the House it is always said that the Pearce Commission must decide. When representations are made to the Commission one is referred back to the House. I left nine questions with Lord Justice Pearce over two weeks ago. One of them related to the number of detainees and whether representations had been made. I am still awaiting a reply. Will the right hon. Gentleman guarantee that I will get a reply from the Pearce Commission?

Mr. Godber

I have just given a specific reply about the number of detainees. Three different categories are involved: the detainees for which I have given the figure of 67; those detained under the 30-day arrangement, figures for which I have not been given; and others which must be included in the figure I am told that Mr. Smith gave on television. I am told that many of those were people arrested in connection with last month's riots. Many have been tried. Some have been convicted and some have been released.

26. Mr. Meacher

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by how much he estimates that Rhodesian imports and exports have been reduced annually since the unilateral declaration of independence as a result of sanctions.

Mr. Godber

According to Rhodesian statistics, the value of both imports and exports fell sharply after the imposition of sanctions. The value of imports had virtually recovered by 1970, the latest year for which figures are available. Exports had also risen again from £107 million in 1968 to £153 million in 1970, although this was still substantially below the 1965 figure.

I will, with permission, circulate such figures as are available in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Meacher

In view of the drop in the figures which the Minister has given, will he acknowledge that it was sanctions, and especially shortages of foreign exchange, which alone brought Mr. Smith to the negotiating table? If the Pearce Commission brings back the answer "No", will the right hon. Gentleman accept that the full maintenance of sanctions is the only policy, short of military intervention, which can extract real concessions from a police State dictator?

Mr. Godber

The hon. Gentleman had better look at the figures which I shall be publishing, and I think he will see that although sanctions were effective in the early days they have been substantially eroded according to the figures available at the present time. Therefore, although they have had their effect in helping to bring about the discussions, they are one aspect of the matter but I would not think they are the whole.

Sir F. Bennett

Could my right hon. Friend say whether such reductions as have been achieved have been achieved as a result of sacrifices in regard to British exports and imports and those of others who have obeyed sanctions? Could he give comparable figures to show how they have been maintained in the case of France, Germany and Japan, for instance?

Mr. Godber

I cannot, without notice, give the other figures to which my hon. Friend refers, but Britain has loyally observed sanctions up to the hilt. I only wish that others had done the same.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

Were the figures given at constant prices? In addition to giving figures about trade, would the right hon. Gentleman also give the figures relating to investment? Is it not essential that we maintain sanctions if the present proposals come to nothing?

Mr. Godber

The figures were not at constant prices. There will be some degree of inflation, but it is only one part of the story. It is not the whole part. There-is no question that there has been increasing evasion of sanctions, as the hon. Gentleman must know.

Following are the figures:

RHODESIAN IMPORTS AND EXPORTS 1965–1970
£ million
Imports Exports
1965 139 184
1966 99 113
1967 109 110
1968 121 107
1969 116 132
1970 137 153

Source: Rhodesian Monthly Digest of Statistics.

Notes: For the sake of comparability these figures are given in terms of the present sterling equivalent of Rhodesian currency.

29. Mr. Whitehead

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information has now been supplied to him by the Pearce Commission regarding the policy of testing opinion on the proposed Rhodesian settlement by unscheduled stops in outlying areas; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Godber

None, Sir. It is for the Pearce Commission to decide the best means of carrying out its task. It will report its findings in due course in its report.

Mr. Whitehead

Would the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Pearce Commission that if the report of its intention to alter its schedule to avoid intimidation at the meetings which it visits is correct. this has two serious disadvantages in the job that the Commission is doing? First, the Commission is accepting the Smith régime's valuation of intimidation as coming on the African side and, secondly, by not telling people where it is going, the Commission will see far fewer people.

Mr. Godber

As a result of the hon. Gentleman's Question I made specific inquiries and I have no knowledge of any unscheduled stops. The Pearce Commission is making such arrangements as it thinks right with regard to the people it sees. There are accusations of intimidation on both sides. The Pearce Commission has taken note of all this and will bear it in mind in any report that it makes.

Mr. Tapsell

Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the protest which the New Zealand Government have made to the Smith régime about the illegal detention of Mr. Todd and Miss Todd? Can he explain why the British Government have still made no such protest?

Mr. Godber

I do not know whether my hon. Friend was present in the Chamber when I answered questions on this matter earlier. I made quite clear our attitude to this and I cannot add to what I then said.

Mr. Foley

In making inquiries of the Pearce Commission as to its method of work, did Her Majesty's Government ascertain the extent to which the Commission was using a qualitative or quantitative assessment in terms of public opinion? If so, on what basis was the criterion to be established? If not, is it not important that the Minister and the House should know exactly the methods of work of the Commission?

Mr. Godber

The Commission was given the task to use such means as it thought appropriate. As I understand it, it has used both methods in its investigation, and it should no doubt report fully the methods it has used as well as the result of its investigations.